Your thoughts on Hitbox

I for one didn't say that hitbox allowed things that weren't otherwise possible. I implied that it made them easier.
Once you realize you can wavedash simply by pianoing two buttons..

There are still things that are harder on an all-button-controller though, VF stagger recovery is one of them.

 

http://www.4gamer.net/games/000/G000000/20120708002/

The Japanese fgc is interested in Hitbox...can anyone translate? R_Panda is in this article also.

 

i know thats why i said that, a hitbox offers no advantage for those things he mentioned.

yes they do, there is nothing difficult to it. watch some o.sagat matches. you get hella time to buffer the fireball, you could do the motion hella slow and youd still be on time to press the button as the first fireball disappears. like myke said, the hitbox offers nothing over a joystick or even a pad for such things.

the reason you aren't seeing it in high level matches all the time is because usually just chucking more than two fireballs from a stationary position is simply not good strategy.

 

why do you respond only to the most insignificant area of my post and ignore the bigger questions? I don't wanna just argue for no reason dude.

I am comfortable granting that fireballs can be thrown quickly when buffered, maybe I got ahead of myself in that regard, though the difference is ABSOLUTELY clear in street fighter IV (not st) and yes I have played said games at a high level and would gladly prove my ST proficiency on GGPO, but that aside, the point I raise is a hitbox just has the clear advantage with the lack of any traveling of the joystick.

it's not debatable, my example with sagat was a poor example on my part admittedly but the purpose of the post remains in my opinion and if it does not I am open to hear why not.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful btw, it's all love here

please address this question at least, the hitbox clearly grants the user the ability to more accurately and quickly hit directions and input motions. If this is true, why are joysticks not obsolete? I mean technically, ignoring issues like learning curve or scenes based in arcades. purely speaking of input efficiency, why would anyone use a joystick over a hitbox?

 

I won't see joysticks as obsolete untill I see hitbox users start dp-ing pokes on reaction and stuff like that.

in the neutral game it clearly cuts down on exection time but I'm not convinced that the few frames it cuts off will drasticly change the game. for example, according to the vf5FS input display my input for a dp takes 5 to 6 frames. say a hitbox shaves off about 2 frames, is that enough to suddenly start uppercutting things I was not previously able to uppercut?

 

you must have some godlike dp's as I just hitup the training mode out of curiosity and my dp's ranged from 5 to 10 frames generally landing in the 6-8 range.

fireball motions doing 4 to 6 generally.

just hitting a direction takes insane precision to tap a direction for just a single frame when compared to tapping a a button.

so getting any of the above moves out in 2 to 3 frames I do indeed think is quite significant, it's not going to make scrubs win, but it doubles your input speed.

http://youtu.be/EJcBC_mzr8c
I'm sure anyone interested in the hitbox has seen this but clearly removing a good ammount of the possibility of human error in direction based inputs and increasing the speed is not insignificant.

so when I say obsolete I don't mean a joystick player could never win against a hitbox player, I just mean a competitive player would be stupid not to take every advantage they can get and I think it's been displayed that the hitbox has more significant advantages over a joystick than disadvantages.

human error seems like a small factor but it really adds up, look at the differences in gameplay between people who play a marvel game for example, if you watch someone play the way the PC GGPO community plays marvel vs capcom, the movement is ridiculous because they have a button for all 3 punches, it's not like high level joystick players can't wave dash consistently, but when you remove all possibility to mess up that wave dash the whole game is completely changed. Fanatiq and his 1 button dash magneto in mvc2 is another good example, 1 button dash adds so much to his game he is willing to sacrifice a assist button to use it and even with that gigantic sacrifice, respectable marvel players still see his 1 button dash as cheating.

it's debatable if the hitbox's change is good or not, but I still think it's quite significant.

 

Does anybody in NYC have a hitbox? I just want to try it out before I commit to such a big change.

 

Too bad you can't test VF this way... But I always imagine that a good way to pre-train and test out the Hit Box Layout is to play fighting games as a keyboarder on PC.

You can pick any buttons you want, though I'd simply go with the following:

A = Left
S = Down
D = Right
Space = Up

and whatever you want to fancy for your "buttons" though I recommend using character keys on the right side so your right thumb can also access Space.

It's just been my guess since I saw a Hit Box that it was inspired by keyboarding on the PC.

Side note, I like the more ergonomic layout and the use of Sanwa buttons because of sensitivity. The only bummer for me is that I wish the buttons were all bigger.

Also, for the record... I'm totally open to the Hit Box and I've even said I really like the idea and that it's been made. But the stubborn bastard in me will still be using sticks for at least a good while.

 

Why there are tons of people using pad over stick in fighting games?
...
Because everyone can (and will) use what suits him most.

BTW, about hitbox being cheating... It resembles me BIG debate back in 2006 before ABSO, weather allow pad players (as there was TONS of pad players in Europe back there, especially in middle / eastern part... and there still is many of them) to use button bindings or not in T4 tournament (LP+RP, LP+LK etc.). Many stick players consider this as cheating, because "there is no place for mishitting and it removes the human error from the game where it belongs" and because "it gives the pad players unfair advantage."
But when it comes to arguments like "stick inputs are much faster that pad ones" or "it is really hard to actually hit bindings on pad" and questions if this is not "unfair advantage for stick players", they was not able to put together any better answer that "that is your problem."
...
So when someone had advantage over them, it was unfair. If he had disadvantage, it was his problem. That was the conclusion of the stick players who started the debate.

This debate resembles me the very some problem. "HitBox gives you unfair advanatge." If it is so, why there was SINGLE ONE player using hitbox in VF at WHOLE EVO? If it is so, why arent YOU using hitbox?
Using hitbox is NOT cheating (as long as there are no "doubleblocks" and similar issues incorporated). It MAY be advantageous, but it is hard to believe it really is an issue, because if it will be true, pro players will probably jump in ASAP.
Because being pro means using all possible advantages to keep your "job" running properly. Best boots, best boats, most ergonomic helmets... best sticks.

 

I don't think the things you put in quotes are actually quotes of mine, I never said a hitbox was cheating and I never even used the word unfair. Seriously, actually read my posts and I think you might find my points quite reasonable, I am simply expressing a concern.

this pad debate is irrelevant, pads have a dead zone and throw just like a joystick does, I have no issue with pads and really no issue with hitboxes, just concerned and thought it was a interesting discussion.

you already know why every VF player was not using a hitbox at evo. Because arcade sticks are established from years of play and hitboxes are a brand new concept.

EDIT: ahh I digress, I am new to this community, I don't wanna make people hate me more by debating everyone seems I am the only one with this concern so perhaps it is irrational... I will step out of this one.

 

Your qoute was there just to answer the question "why would anyone use joystick over hitbox" Rest of my text was just... something like "general idea" I get fater reading through this topic

 

I am no expert, but I used to play a lot of VF1, VF2, and some VF4 Evolution in PS2 emulation on PC - with keyboard, so I suppose it's similar experience to a hitbox. Sure, diagonals are fast and more dependable, but I was never able to execute circulars properly, let alone stagger recovery.

 

The reason Hitbox works great for Street Fighter is because as the Hitbox videos explained, to complete a QCF fireball you only have to hit down, forward, punch on the Hitbox. You do not have to input down, down-forward, forward, punch. For Zangief's SPD, similarly you can skip all the diagnals.

So, does this hold true for VF QCF and HCF motions? Because if VF demands the diagnals to be hit, I can see that raise more difficulty for using the Hitbox.

 

don'y worry about that, this is an interesting discussion.

 

Well...
I just went into the lab with Wolf.
Burning hammer, input was 8545256+P+G. Works perfectly.
Heavens impact, input was 65254+P+G. Works perfectly.
Screw hook, input was 65254+P. Works perfectly.

Then switched for Lion.
Touru hassu, input was 45256+P. Works perfectly.
Tenshin soukoushu, input was 65254+P+G. Works perfectly.
Ryuse Kouhugeki, input was 254+P. Total fail (but according to movelist, it is not "qcb+P", but 214+P"; unlike all "holf-circle"+ moves.)

Switch for Akira.
Koboku, imput as 254+P. Total fail (again - 214 instead of qcb in movelist).
Juho honko, total fail.

etc etc.

Conclusion: In VF, you can skip the "mid" diagonals in amy move, which is half circle or more. In quarter circls, you are supposed to hit diagonals in order to succeed.

Just FYI.

 

In SF4 it's similar, btw. The game does demand accurate quarter circles, but it's more accurate to say that it demands:
(any forward),(any down),(any forward) for shoryuken motions*
(downback),(forward) for half circle forward (and reverse for back)
(all four major directions) for 360.

For example, Fei's Chicken Wing (the flying kick) input is a half circle, but it is at an angle so it begins from downback and ends up in forward jump. The game has no input stored for "half circle weird" so it is written (downback)(quarter circle forward)(upforward) and is strict.

These slack demands do help sometimes - for example you can do a shoryuken without standing up which helps antiairing a lot, or you can srk while stopping forward motion for only one frame even with a flick of a stick - but get in the way too (Hello, Oni with tons of specials and ten million command normals...)

I think the main benefit of hitboxes is just generally cleaner input once you learn the thing.

* this is why d,df,d and fw,df,fw are both shoryukens, for example.

 

I gave a hitbox a try for an evening on one that a friend owned (and am actually planning on getting one myself, now... though my stick manipulation skills have always been terrible, so it's not surprising).

I really noticed 3 things. The first was it was way more intuitive than I expected. Took me only about 20 minutes to be doing most of my normal combos, though I certainly had to think pretty hard about it, and of course wasn't playing as well as I do on a stick.

The second thing for me was the accuracy. Just tapping a button to evade was a dream come true, whereas on a stick I'm occasionally failing to return to neutral fast enough, or not buffering it late enough, or a million other things that cause me to just stand there or crouch or something instead of evade. I mean, yeah, that's totally a personal problem, and might even be because I use a super-old low-quality Hori stick instead of a Sanwa or anything that people actually rate as precise. But it is a real problem.

And last there was a very slight timing advantage. Actually one of the first things I did was repeatedly dash forward *into* an opponent's rising kick, instead of dashing in after they had whiffed the kick, because the timing when I needed to start moving the joystick is a split-second earlier than the timing needed to start pressing buttons. Not a big difference, and not something hard to do with either controller, but definitely felt like an advantage on the hitbox.

I also really loved that it's basically impossible to input 46 instead of 43 or other similar minor input errors. Not that I ever found it that hard on a stick to get that stuff right, though...

My friend who owns it is a wolf player, and claims using a hitbox took from a 50% rate of doing perfect giant swing vs. regular giant swing, to a 100% rate of perfect giant swings.

Of course, there are some negatives, too. There definitely seems to be a bit of a mental tax. Going from thinking about 6 possible button combinations plus a direction or two to some crazy list of 20 button combos for all the possible commands is a bit weird. Hitting the button on the top of the box for down, and button on the bottom for up is a bit weird. Getting good timing on half-circle and full-circle moves seems a bit weird (yeah, I know the hitbox guys have videos showing ways to do it, I still think a stick is easier, though).

This came out more positive than I really expected to be... but yeah, for me personally it was just that it made the right things feel easier to do. I would rather drop a combo than not evade when I intend to, and a stick seems to give me the latter, whereas the hitbox was giving me the former.