Yomi Innate or Nurtured?

that would switch the scenario back to 50/50. meaning sarah could also claim her ass back and take wolf's too¬

wolf made a "yomi" choice to pressure sarah's mid game ¬ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

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But it won't bleed like hers does.

 

People do things in scenarios so ultimately you still have to
read your opponent. Examples can't get pass this: IE at small
advantage I can just machi and bait your whiff. Knowing what
scenarios are is just application of knowledge which ultimately
is solid. Reading your opponent is liquid.

and...yes...I only read like 3 lines of what you wrote...again /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

dude, honestly... if you didnt read something, how can you reply against it. you may aswell have made a blank reply seeing as you base it apon no content. (?!)

reading your opponent as worded <-- means watching your opponent, their habits, their moves, their choices, their reactions, it is personal to them.

my scenarios are based on making a "yomi" decision in a rock-paper-scissors situation. inwhich case, it doesnt matter who you fight, which character and when, -- your yomi is attacking the situation, and not the character or player.

this can be trained or developed based on your knowlege of your character.

 

Nice I read that. I think reading the player is superior because
while reading the player you are also considering the knowledge
of the situation. They are never mutually exclusive. If you base
your entire playstyle on payoff and never taken into account
another players tendencies then you are going to get ripped.

Reading a players reaction to a situation is what will get you
consistent wins. Just reading a situation will get you random
results unless the PLAYER is considered.

It's all about reading the player if you want to win. Some
players are completely ignorant to most situations. Take me
for example lol. Yet by reading my opponents tendencies I
can squeek my wins REGARDLESS of the situation. At high levels
both players already know the situation, it's the wierd shit
that seperates them when they break the rules.

Then again I could be completely wrong.
I'm not very estudious at this thing so
I'll leave the conversation here.
(Jots down another note not to engage in technical
talk, just play dumb ass.)

 

you calling yourself the worst player HAS to be a dig at cocky bastards who think they're the heat

 

to be honest dude, i didnt really scratch out either, i just expanded the prespective. yahh, watching ur opponent is very very helpful, but i think it should be about general catagory building. you may even find that you can break several different tendencies with one move, or one movement. you dont often have to deal with it on an isolated level.

if you mould your game around your opponent's individual habits alone, then the probability of sucess or fail becomes multiplied. your opponent can play you in any direction they wish. not only this, but winning becomes inconsistent because players are inconsistent. even their execution is inconsistent ¬ truth be told, it's more practical to hold ur own game when they cant hold thiers.

using developed scenarios will force them inside a prisim where ther options become catagoried and broken down to suit you, and where this can initially be your rock paper scissors game, you also have the control to force a "yomi/read" option out of it because you know each possible outcome.

i hope that makes sense! *whew* tiredddd* /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Your ability to predict is based on knowledge.

Tricky is absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt right.


Sure, anyone can play rock, paper, scissors.

But ask yourself: "Why can anyone play?"

I'll explain.

In rock, paper, scissors there are very few possible outcomes.

Rock beats scissors.

Scissors beats paper.

Paper beats rock.

Tie game.

In Virtua Fighter there are many more properties to consider when compared with those of a rock in rock, paper, scissors.

So seeing as more has to be brought into consideration, more has to be known.

If you were to play someone at rock, paper, scissors who doesn't know the possible outcomes then they will be stumbling blindly through the game until they piece together how the game works.

The same applies anywhere else.

You need to gain knowledge and experience before you can confidently play and make attempts to guess your opponents moves before they do.

 

This is a cool thread.

 

Now its clear we have:

Situation[/size] - Yomi (reading the situation)
Player[/size] - Yomi (reading the player)
Character[/size] - Yomi (reading the character)

It is agreed that all require knowledge, experience, and nurture[/size].

But once the reading is done: the sophistication, creativity, cleverness of the player's response can be something that is innate[/size] with a given player. Some people are just talented and are born with spatial-eye-hand-coordination that can't be learned. These people have reflexes that are independent of VF or any other video game. They tend to be good at a whole range of things that
require spatial-temporal reasoning /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

 

I'm my opinion you have one form of prediciton.

Player prediction. (or reading)

You can't predict something that is, so knowledge of situations and options out
of situations is set in stone. I can't predict that my laptop has keys on it. It just
has keys on it. I can't predict that I'm + whatever after a guarded punched and thusly CAN do XYZ to beat ZYX. I just can, mathematically these ARE THE OPTIONS.

Only thing I can predict or read is the player. Everything else is just knowledge of
the game mechanics.

 

Slide although we don't always agree you can yomi me all day.
What so we have PERSON Yomi!
I'm about to go wash the dishes yomi and then go to work yomi.

Okay I'm done.

 

I believe most of us think that yomi refers to 'reading the opponent'. Reading the situation and characters is simply factual knowledge and observation. Reading and predicting opponents thoughts are the important part. I'd rather not confuse these with each other.

 

I suppose not.

But reading your opponent and making the right move is a different matter.

I couldn't count the amount of times I've caught someone with something only to hear "I KNEW you were going to do that!"

 

->reading the opponent
->observation

same thing dude.


you cant "predict your opponent's mind" when you've never trial and errored a situation.

 

Unless you go by common sense or popular knowledge.

For instance HOWL starts off most rounds with a dash backwards and a sidestep. Now that piece of info is in the public domain and can be utilised by anyone.

Including HOWL himself.

I actually have a notebook detailing individual player's quirks in different fighting games. I don't have much for VF at the moment: A few bits and bobs I have gathered from a few random games to things I have noticed in videos.

I have quite a bit on Fulan and HOWL however, owing to my playing them fairly regularly when I had my internet working.

Especially Fulan though. We started at pretty much the same time and progressed at more or less the same rate and my style of play now is moulded off of his Eileen, to the same token that my Akira has been moulded off of his Goh.

Chances are, if I have played you I will have something on you.

It never hurts to have a player's quirks in black and white in front of you.

 

I agree with Manji. I think there's a lot of confusion here. It's like reading all the frames threads again. Knowing that a blocked low punch puts you at -5 because you read it on the list, and knowing that a blocked low punch leaves you at disadvantage because you tested individual move interactions in the dojo really is equivalent knowledge. There's nothing magical about frames, and there's nothing magical about yomi.

You guys are talking about character yomi, and character knowledge, and yomi in terms of conditioning as opposed to yomi in terms of knowledge based on previous matches of a player's style.

My opinion is there just isn't really any lines to draw between that stuff... you can't predict anything if you don't at least understand the rules... and you can't apply knowledge of the rules effectively unless you have some basis on which to make a prediction. It's really all the same thing.

 

So each is based entirely on knowledge garnered through exprience, thusly rendering Tricky's initial statement 'True' and finding me,Seidon, correct in my statements and proclaimed as overlord and god of the universe.

I bid you good day.

 

You can't predict if you havent observed, but you can observe all you want but it wont help if you cannot predict. I merely mean that observing and what you make of the observations are two different things. (Im good on the former, weak on the latter /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif )

Also, conditioning is not the same thing. Conditioning is what you can do to people who arent aware of their tendencies, and therefore, the whole mindgame itself. On the other hand, what Sirlin referred to as "multiple layers of yomi" happens when opponent attempts to read you and you 'counter the countermeasure'. This is also where observation and application can differ. Even if you know the options (knowledge) and you observe what your opponent has done so far (observation) you still need to predict which of the options (if multiples) opponent will choose. I think some of you guys are on layer one, like doing a lowthrow into the fuzzy guard. Next option is to counter the reverse nitaku attack that counters the lowthrow (argh, japanese words) like with a simple attack, which is questionable since it doesnt beat a simple ETEG done from small disadvantage you'd normally fuzzy in. Maybe try evade and attack instead. Continue this a bit and we get into ludicrous options like throwing in disadvantage. I know propably most of you guys simply think linearly, observe -> do countermeasure next time. But that actually is susceptible to conditioning.. Like if you observe your opponent will do the correct countermeasure during the second repeat every time, that is easy to turn against him. I love VF in this sense, twisting my mind around all the options....


/e waits for Shang to jump out from somewhere and do the shit-gospel anytime now

 

sorry, there's alot of confusion here, and i apologize if i have to explain everything im saying. but i wasnt referring to observing the opponent's moves and habits.

i was referring to observing the opponent's "momentum". you can generally tell wether an opponent is agressive, impatient, panicked, tired, troubled, fustraited. you can see that an opponent plays reverse nitaku too much, or if they choose a bad flow chart, or they turtled. this is what i mean about sensing or reading your opponent's nerves, and that's what i feel is "reading your opponent".

when you force a condition like for example db+k which is diasdvantage on hit, you have already narrowed down the opponent's choices to afew static options (even if they are aware of it or not). you can already with the unexplainable "y-o-m-i", sense that the opponent either wants to hit back or wants to wait for better options down to how you feel judging form their former preformance. -- there's no text book to explain this either.

the common factors on making your readability more accurate or less accurate is:

A) knowlege of your character (judgement of own moves)
B) knowlege of your situation (ring position, and your status of adv or dis)
C) knowlege of your opponent's moves and general flow of their character.

if you are good at reading, and bad at reacting, then it's an indecisive mindstate, it's generally something the opponent can play on too. conditions and scenarios stay at exact frame barriers, it's up to your judgement to either play exact frames, or counter-attack exact frames. otherwise the general play is broken and isnt really advantaged or disadvantaged at all, just kindda random weirdness that would lose to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

 

You know although everyones writing all this shit out. It's kind of common sense.
At least it should be to the people that actually post in here.