Why is everybody playing 2D fighting games?

I too work real hard to keep up a friend list of active vfers who have decent connections with me. It's the only way to make online bearable.

 

The picture you posted holds the key to it all. It's the fireball.

First off, the fireball represents the main thing that 2D fighting games are about - space control. Like a set of chessmen, every move in a fighting game controls a set amount of space, as this video by David Sirlin demonstrates.



Space control is also more easy to understand than frame data since it's already apparent on screen. In any case, the speed in which 2d fighters move at (outside of NRS games) de-emphasizes frame data since the differences are often down to low single digits.

The fireball then represents the extreme end of space control as it allows real combat at a distance. Depending on the character, you can be at full screen distance away from your opponent and still be a threat. Simply backing away doesn't not create a break from the action. In fact, know what to do at the proper ranges is an important part of strategy (this is why you see players like Infiltration pick the training stage, since the lines help them judge distance).

Then, there's the other important thing that a fireball does - it acts as a setup. When someone tosses a fireball out on screen, the opposing have no choice but to react to it. The thing is however, is that the fireball is a separate entity from the players character. This means that the other player has to now take into consideration both the fireball and the player who tossed it out. How they react can lead to them actually taking more damage. This is why the classic "shoto" fireballs trap works. At the right range, jumping over a fireball will only lead to a player getting hit by a DP or similar anti-air attack. This is, of course, only the beginning. There are alot of other interesting setup situations that fireballs and fireball analogues allow.

Take a look at the Marvel Vs. series. Ever since MSH, these games have had something that also acts as a form of fireball analogue that has changed the way these games are played forever. I'm talking, of course, about assists. Assists act as fireball analogues in that they are a objects, separate from the main character that control space. Assists allow for a range of interesting setups and mixups, including situations where a defending player will be required to block in multiple directions (fun fact, 2d fighters that have you hold back to block have 4 to 6 blocking directions and players can only block one at a time) leading to punishing mixups to flat out unblockable situations. It's not uncommon for a player to call out an assist that locks their opponent blocking in one direction, only to teleport to the other side and attack from there.

These kinds of things are just not possible with how modern 3D fighters are designed. They're also easier to understand since the "data" so to speak is easily visible on the action on screen (no need to wonder how Vergil got in when you saw that he teleported behind his opponent while they were blocking a beam from Dr. Doom). At the same time, the freeform nature of these allows for a ton of depth that is mostly limited only by the players imagination.

For more on this, I recommend reading this old Domination 101 article by Seth Killian from 2003.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/91156/2d-vs-3d

 

LOL.
Sorry D3v, normally, I am on board with lengthy informative posts.
But in all honesty, I'm with @Leftylizard on this one.

If your post was any drier, I could use it on my Cadillac Deville after it comes out of the car wash...

 

Should I have just copied what Seth did and be salty and condescending with the entire post.

If you followed the link, it's not just me. The original argument is from none other than Seth Killian himself.

The 2D projectile game provides an avenue of combat that has never, ever been replicated in 3D (SFEX and Project Justice don't count since at their core, they're still 2D). There are certain playstyles that projectiles enable that cannot be replicated in the current crop of 3D games - runaway, lockdown (e.g. ChrisG in UMvC3), etc. The closest we've seen to something like the 2D projectile game is Viola in Soul Calibur V.

 

I think players who enjoy 3D fighters and not 2D ones, don't want fireballs in their game though. I'd hate to see a fireball mechanic in a VF game. VF shouldn't be SFIV, or try to be. It should be it's own thing just like it's always been. VFers don't' want to play a 3D SFIV game, we just want a VF game that has the ability to draw large numbers while still keeping it's core.

So while I really like Seth Killian's writings and respect the dude, he's not the authority to defer to for this kinda stuff. I agree with some of what he says but just because he says it doesn't make it correct. Applying his Dom 101 posts to VF has helped me grow as a player, but some stuff I have had to throw out as irrelevant.

 

Reminds me of the April fools VF5FS video hahaaa they should have included that in one of the challenges.

Could it be art has a role in it? Whilst 2D images are unrealistic, it makes the special moves more believable (in the game world) whilst 3D games try to look more realistic so that it makes attacks less convincing?

Dunno, just a random thought.

 

As a SC player yourself, you've seen how well that worked out

What's the deal with SRK these days anyway? Used to get the kind of traffic NG gets now, but all I ever see on there these days is posts from like 15 year old Gen players Maybe everyone just grew up? You'll find plenty of older players on here who spent years with the 2D games, zoning and corner-trapping etc., but once you get sucked into VF for real, it's kinda hard to go back to anything else. This is a game where you actually, y'know, fight, not run down a long clock with teleports, flying or full screen away plasma spam. Visually as well, with the custom outfits now VF has, running in hi-res, our game feels more like a lovingly crafted Raphael compared to Capcom's constant Warhol-esque turgid regurgitation.

 

I too am suspicious of this. Fireballs in 2D games might be awesome, tactical and easily readable but I'm not sure that's why they are so popular. By that logic, if you included fireballs in a 3D fighting game it would instantly be as popular as the 2D games we have around at the moment. Soul Calibur also features long range spacing (Ivy could hit you from the other side of the screen and Cervantes could shoot across the screen as far as I recall).

Spacing is absolutely key in ANY real fighting game I can think of. The only difference with 2D games is that the spacing is the entire screen. I don't think you can point to any one tactical feature of 2D games and say that's the reason they are so popular.

 

The people loves automatic comeback mechanics...that's why. Imagine a KOF, SSF 4, MK or MvsC3 without Supers Specials attacks, Ultras, X-Ray...simply awful.

 

Very much recent thing...ok. Let's see

The King of Fighters 94': Super Move -> 1994
Super Street Fighter II Turbo: SUPER ->1994
Art of Fighting: Super Death Blow -> 1992
Art of Fighting 2: Super Death Blow and Desperation Moves -> 1994
Fatal Fury 2: Desperation Moves -> 1992
Samurai Shodown II: Super Special Move -> 1994
Darkstalkers: Super combo -> 1994

MK must be the only 199X game, without comeback mechanics...

 

I think 2D fighters are easier to play and do well in overall. And VF specially has always been "too hard" why do you think jwong sucks at it. It's not easy for him.

Also SFII was way more popular than VF at the time so it developed a bigger fan base and more people played it. And all 2D fighters after kinda just coattailed that success thus 2D games still being the main thing

 

I think he "sucks at it" because he doesn't play it very often, not because how "amazingly difficult" the game is.

I think its very easy to forget that 2D games also incorporate mind games and not just muscle memory. Plus you don't even have to manage a meter in VF (unless you're Shun).

 

Most older people in SRK simply post in specific portions (the GD Lounge, Tech Talk TOL thread, 3S section). Most of the mains sections are filled with newer people who came in post '09 or '10.

Because some of us actually enjoy chucking plasma and keeping away. Also, for the most part, we don't really care about the matching "looking like a fight," it's more about being able to learn the system and find the most efficient, safest way to win. Playing to win is what we do and if it means making the other guy miserable because he couldn't do nothing, then so be it. As UltraDavid once said, the genre, especially back in the arcade days, was all about "skill based dickery."

As much as I agree that the art in SFIV is questionable, I still respect the decision to make the characters follow the artists style (Ikeno) and not make them photorealistic.

Except you can't really replicate how fireballs work in 2D in a traditional 3D game. Using that SC example, Ivy or Cervantes may be able to hit you from the other side, but the things they're hitting you with aren't separate from them. Now if Ivy's whip was a separate object independent of her, and she could punish you with a separate move for avoiding it while it was still on screen, then it would be a proper fireball analogue.

 

I have a feeling that a fireball mechanic that would work seperate of the fireball thrower would end up overpowered in a 3D game.

 

I heard once that SF is so popular because it easily attracts all those pre-teen weeaboos, I wouldn't straight up agree but I can see how the games anime style and art would attract a lot of gamers.

The game just seems accessible to everyone too, a lot of gamers grew up with SF and know the basics like how to throw a sonic boom/fireball. I think it's exactly the same now whereas most other fighting games are pretty niche so the mechanics can be a little overwhelming.