Who here thinks EVO Akira is too powerful?

Yeah a lot of Akira's attacking go-to moves end up being mids and playing my Pai mate used to really piss me off as he'd constantly hammer /+ to reverse my elbows and single palms.However it was then made obvious to me I was being far to samey with my moves so I learnt to mix up attacks a lot better.

 

Re: Sorry Long post

Sounds like someone has character problems. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif I agree that SDE is a nasty move that should be -8 on block but then Akira wouldn't have the glowing fist of doom! I expect to see Yorou like hair and Kage next time we meet. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

LOL, I was going to post a reply but Sumeragi pretty much wrote what I had in mind...just longer and in a Lau context. It's kinda funny to see a Lau player complain about Akira though. And no, I'm not going to say anything about Kage.

The reason why I don't think one can out-safe or out-poke a really good Akira is because the SDE is simply too good--no other move quite has the same risk-reward ratio (except maybe Aoi's double stop in VF4 version A/B).

Think about it...a P/elbow Lau versus a P/SDE Akira...who will win? Assuming they are of similar skill, one would have to say the Akira because the SDE is more damaging (and safe if the Lau elects to use elbow-palm...and the SDE is still potentially more damaging). If the SDE hits Lau with the same frequencey that Lau's elbow hits Akira...Akira wins.

Hence, to beat that really good Akira, don't rely on the P/elbow...play the bigger risk game.


But of course, the example I used above is also simplified. A really good Lau just won't use an elbow...he'll know how to use elbow-palm, elbow (delay) palm, elbow and elbow again, elbow throw, elbow , elbow +, elbow , etc. etc. The point is that having delayable canned options available is of value and it's something that stats don't quite capture.

 

"The point is that having delayable canned options available is of value and it's something that stats don't quite capture."

this is excatly my point.

like you pointed out, comparing elbow to SDE is kind of apples/oranges. While Lau and Kage don't really have a single, strong attack that can be directly compared to the SDE, what they do have is all those other speedy, relatively safe strings (many of which you mentioned) that Akira does not. And while those moves may not do 70 points, counter hit Lau's middle kick- P will get you 47 points, not bad.

I think it's just a question of balance, Lau, Kage and Akira are basically different types:

Kage: speed/tricky type
Lau: balance type
Akira: power type

Only Akira has the SDE, only Kage has the TFT, only Wolf has the GS... they're basically the signature attacks those characters built their game around. the strength of the SDE balances the fact that Akira is weak in other ways.

Sumeragi:

I just want to say that while I don't think moves like Knee, Single Palm-Elbow are hard after you practice, I think you put it pretty well when you said after 1000 matches you should be able to do it. Can you think of commands for another character that take 1000 times to get good at? I can only think of Jeffry's TKoD and Wolf's Shining Wizard.

Have you ever seen a thread called "HELP! How do I make Lau's ......?" I agree that in a lot of cases, modified DblPm isn't so tough after practice, like after P- Shoulder combos. But, I think that ST- Single Palm- DblPm is VERY difficult, and only about 15-20% of all Akira players I have met here and in Japan can make this combo even 80% of the time. I can't (about 10%), in the US, from Akiras I know I think only DRE and IMF can make it almost every time. If you make a ST when the opponent has 60 points left, if you can use this combo, you just won, if you can't, you have to fight more. Sometimes, it CAN make the difference between winning and loosing.

Also, while the SDE to Single Palm- Elbow combo makes the best damage in Evo, and leaves Akira in the best position for Okizeme/Backstagger, AND can make a combo at the wall; have you noticed almost ALL famous Japanese Akira players still use DJK? Ohsu, Homestay, Nagato, Dabi... they don't want to miss Single Palm- Elbow. Command input IS an issue, even at high level play. Akira has many best damage combos people just don't use:

Yoho- P- Knee- DblPm (best damage against Aoi/Pai)
Knee- P- Knee- DblPm
(open stance)b, fP- low P- Yoho- DblPm ( I've only seen it in 2 clips ever, best damage)

why don't we see Akira players making these combos every time? "Nobody still thinks those moves are hard", right?

Is there a Lau combo you can't do? The only hard Lau combo I know is 46P- PPPK. But, I think after 1000 times, maybe I could do it.

Anyway, this has been a fun discussion, and I have to say that in the end, i feel that ALL characters will seem too strong when someone good is using them against you. Feeling like your character is weak and the other characters are too strong is a daily part of VF for me. If you're playing with someone good, try switching characters for a little while, and I bet eventually the thought "man, that character is too fucking strong/cheap!" will creep into your head, then you'll remember it's your own character /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Spotlite

 

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comparing elbow to SDE is kind of apples/oranges

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I agree. But seriously do you think a delay palm give Lau's elbow so much advantange over SDE's damage potential and safeness? I just watched a kakutoshiseiki prelim match between some Akira, all they were doing is punch SDE. SDE some more. Kinda reminds me of Jacky in vf3 days where all they do is punch, elbow spinkick for 1/3 of lifebar. Lol i guess Lau gets the better end at this comparison becuz it will take 6-7 elbow palm to land before killing off his oppt, even more if he is to mix in with plain elbows. Point is... no matter how you glorified Lau's canned elbow palm, most Lau player in matches still have to rely on various other moves to win.

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Can you think of commands for another character that take 1000 times to get good at?

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Nope. My point of the original post was to point out for expert matches (ppl who prolly have play over 1000 games), the difficulty of a character's move execution is no longer a very significant factor.

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ST- Single Palm- DblPm is VERY difficult, and only about 15-20% of all Akira players I have met here and in Japan can make this combo even 80% of the time

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Well, i am sure you know single palm is no longer guranteed. It seems the lighter a character is the easier it is to struggle out (not sure). But anyway go to trial mode one of the challenges is to struggle out akira's ST->Singlepalm. Not too difficult since you are given ample time to struggle compare to other stagger situation. Anyway, what i am trying to say is, prolly AM2 want Akira to look into other way to deal dmg, so single palm-double palm accuracy means less now than it is before.

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have you noticed almost ALL famous Japanese Akira players still use DJK?

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Yup, and the reason is DJK's dmg is about the same (1-2 pnt lower?). I am sure if they further cut 10pnt off DJK dmg off crumble then most of the forementioned ppl will start practicing the just frame harder /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif If you are questioning human's ability to perform just fr type of move consistently, i think many Tekken players can tell you it is hard, but not impossible. (i've heard TK ppl saying perform 2-3 Just fr moves in a combo isn't too hard; whereas 5-6 is insane)(we are just talking about 1 here in akira's case...)

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why don't we see Akira players making these combos every time? "Nobody still thinks those moves are hard", right?


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/versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif Again, it is becuz Akira's launcher->P->shrm->Byakko does enough dmg already (80+?) and it works on everybody (all you have to watch is counter/normal hit for heavier oppts). Why bother with fancier combos when they don't look all that fancier and does only a little more dmg? Anway, i think advanced akira player don't do it cuz there isn't much incentive to go through the troubles, and risk of missing it in tourney matches is too great. But if you think they don't do it becuz you need to watch stance/weight/hit etc... i don't think thaz an issue cuz i think we've seen plenty of those being perform with other characters (where they actually have the need to do so). Heck i think i saw mukky doing a yoho->p->knee->byakko and not much response from the gallery(this is in one of Daioh's)

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Is there a Lau combo you can't do? The only hard Lau combo I know is 46P- PPPK

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/versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif same reason, no point in going through the pain when stance dependent combos give you satisfactory dmg.

Ok, i am getting the feeling that you are getting the wrong message.

Am i saying akira's combos aren't harder to do compare to all other characters? no. It isn't my intent to diss Akira in any way. Akira is definitly a character with steeper (perhaps steepest)learning curve. I still do have respect for ppl that can perform Akira's combo consistently. My intent is to point out in high lvl matches, technicality of a character's move execution is no longer an issue, which makes Akira's SDE such a high dmg potential weapon.

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If you're playing with someone good, try switching characters for a little while, and I bet eventually the thought "man, that character is too fucking strong/cheap!" will creep into your head, then you'll remember it's your own character

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Well. first of all i don't think Akira is too strong. He is as strong as the other top tiers in the game. Again, my original post was to point out his dmg potential is much higher, mainly because of his SDE.

So far i don't have much experience playing human competitions in evo, and out of the matches i have with akira i don't think i did all that bad /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif (so i wasn't 'abused' into thinking Akira's dmg potential is higher /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) And oh yeah, i play akira too, i am the typical akira scrub that only do the generic combos, you know, like the forementioned ones. And i don't have trouble doing them consistently. So a significant part of the analysys i've posted are based on my personal experience.

 

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It's kinda funny to see a Lau player complain about Akira though

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/versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif jeff you know i wasn't complaining, (ok maybe about the SDE a bit /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif ). Basically it is what you posted: If you want to play pure P-elbow game, there is hardly any other chara you can find that does it better than Akira.

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But of course, the example I used above is also simplified. A really good Lau just won't use an elbow...he'll know how to use elbow-palm, elbow (delay) palm, elbow and elbow again, elbow throw, elbow , elbow +, elbow , etc. etc. The point is that having delayable canned options available is of value and it's something that stats don't quite capture.

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One cannot help but admire the simplicity of Akira's offensive scheme no? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just the other day i was chatting to Shou about how Minami Akira was playing Akira like Jeffry almost through out the K2final. (A Byakko Jeffry with 15fr knee! /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Taking advantage of other's safe play by forcing reverse yomi (since reward is so high for akira). Plenty of times you see him just struggle and block out of stagger situation, cuz he knows no one want to take high risk at this stage.

 

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(open stance)b, fP- low P- Yoho- DblPm ( I've only seen it in 2 clips ever, best damage)[

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I messed around with this in training mode this morning & couldn't for the life of me get the yoho to land after I turned TR's on. Maybe I needed to try harder, but with TR off, getting the yoho was easier for me than it should have been...I'm not a stpm, lp, yoho, knee kinda guy, so I'm suspecting at this point the yoho isn't guaranteed (even if it is, I'm fairly certain the knee is nonsense but it's just too damn cool to resist). Maybe this is why we haven't seen too many clips? Has anyone else tested this one with different results? (edit:Shun was the dummy I used for testing.)

My two cents? Lau's got the treble, Akira's got the bass.

 

points well taken.

BTW, I always go for SDE to SinglePalm- Elbow, and you're right, it isn't that hard after practice; even though most Akiras seem to shy away from trying it (but in Evo ver. B, you can now follow with the special DLC, which gives just a few points more damage, but no combos/so-so okizeme).

Anyway, I hope we can play at a gathering again sometime (I think you came to my house in LA 2 years ago, right?)

Spotlite

 

> Well, i am sure you know single palm is no longer guranteed. It seems the lighter a character is the easier it is to struggle out (not sure).

For Lau and Jeff it's pretty easy get out of palm, where as for Akira and Jacky it's much harder when it comes to struggling vs ST > Palm. I'm suprised only 20% of Japanese Akiras can do this combo. Spotlite: Add Rodney to that single/double palm able akira players list

 

Powerful enough to beat other characters with slightly less yomi/correct guesses? Maybe. TOO powerful? Well if that were the case, at least half of the tournaments would be won by akira.

No akira player is good enough to take akira's 10 percent damage/speed/whatever difference and turn it into a 10% higher win rate over players like chibita and kyasao.

 

I can struggle out of it all the time with Jeffry, but can never do it with Kage (against Danny at least). Not sure what AM2's logic behind this is...specific character matchup balancing?

Anyway, I have to say that I disagree with Spotlite's estimate of ST -> spalm -> dpalm success rate in Japan...for me, it felt more like 80% than 20%. In Singapore, three out of four Akira players that I've seen regularly can do it near perfectly (Danny, Wilson, Zhi Feng).

 

Well, that was actually my real experience, that out of ALL the people I played with, in Tokyo and Sendai, at lots of different levels of Gmae Centers (but no utter scrubs), that only about 1/5 people who played Akira seriously could make that combo.

IE in Sendai, I probably played with 10-15 Akira regulars, and out of those, only 3 could do it: Dabi Akira (famous player), Sendai Haakyokukai team Akira (Sendai's 2nd strongest after Dabi), and one other random guy.

I'm sure at Nishispo on friday night, that statctic is pretty different, or even regular hot spots (like Sega game centers, where stiffer comp keeps players sticking to the characters they know best). When I spwnd time in Japan, I tend to play at all different levels of game center, and my numbers were based on all the Akiras I played with, many of which were strong, and never even tried to use that combo.

Spotlite

 

I can do that ST combo pretty consistently in training mode.. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Pull it off once or twice the few times I played as Akira in a real match.. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Of course, I've spent hours practicing .....

 

Good point Creed.If evo akira really was that pwerful who'd be able to stop him?Just the fact that not all tournaments are won by Akira players shows that they can be beaten.Besides Akira doesn't really have the many other attacking options that other player have.Look at his move list in vf4 ver c then compare it to say Jacky's or Vanessa's.His moves may be more powerful than some characters but the sheer number of them ( OK he's had about 10 moves added in evo ) can create a rather predictable player especially any one who's good with reversals.Any how my understanding of the game mechanic was that any character can beat any other character depending on how they're played.Not like the old street fighter 2 days when a ryu/ken ( the game should really have been called ryu and ken fighter 2 ) player would always win against a dhalism/zangief/e.honda playeretc..
Just because people have trouble fighting Akira players and ai is it really justified in saying that he's too powerful.Or is it just the case of players not learning from their mistakes ( like I have done many times in the past ).