VF5 Final Showdown Jeffry Discussion/Observations

I just wanna hear you guy's opinion about Threat and its usage in FS... Is there any real benefit (either offensively or defensively) in using Threat anymore??? I mean I've seen people either get hit out of it or whiff a move, and I personally think its kinda one of those useless stances now unless you're possibly at a great advantage... Thoughts??? If anyone can post up a match with the best example of Threat usage in FS, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

I find it quite...threatening

 

I'm sorry about that.

I feel like, it's not so much the threat stance as how much other characters improved in general. Some characters have gotten so many new things and stuff it makes threat stance look obsolete. When doing a comparison of threat stance between FS, R and Vanilla I liked VF5R one the most. FS and Vanilla is a close race for me.

If you do a side by side comparison between the 2 different threat stances you can judge for yourself which one you like more.

Threat Stance K in Vanilla was fuzzy on guard, big damage on CH, +4 on hit, weak damage on a opponent crouching. In FS you can't fuzzy on guard, less damaging then Vanilla, Crumple I think is gone, hit throw off of it is key though and good damage.

Threat Stance full circular in vanilla was the catch throw with a decent 50 damage, unblockable, knockdown. In FS the full circular is just his destruction wave implemented inside, 67 damage on CH but keep in mind lifebars increased by 20 so technically it's less then the catch throw let alone on NH, you can block it, no knockdown but with frame advantage you can put on pressure.

Threat Stance P in Vanilla was knockdown on any hit and very strong combo off of the throw part. In FS the knockdown is gone but your +4 on hit in exchange, Combo is weaker.

Threat Stance in VF5FS may have corrected it's core weakness since the main problem was that your opponent could always just choose to crouch it but now Threat K has a hit throw which I believe works on a crouching opponent. Still, I feel that it's generally weaker as a whole compared to past ones, and it would be nice if they added some new things for example a low hit for the stance!

Edit: Also a consideration should be made on what moves you can use to get straight into threat stance because I think that is very important, I'm not really familiar all that much with the FS ones though. In vanilla I never use the + one but I use quite a lot since it's faster and second hit is mid.

 

Played a few games with Jeffry over the past several days, here is the complete movelist with comments.

Straight Knuckle P
Double Knuckle PP
Double Knuckle~ Upper PPP
Straight Knuckle~ Body blow P6P P+K+G to threat... of course
"Head cut/katto smash" P6PP
Knuckle Kick PK
Combo "pile bunker" PKP last hit is still a s.h
Elbow Butt 6P
Elbow Hammer 6PP (old 6P4P)
Dashing Elbow 66P still very important (at least for my play style)
Dashing Elbow Upper 66PP
Heavy Back Knuckle 4P old 4P+K, threat stance with P+K+G
Stomach Destroyer! 4PK old 4P+KK
Kenka Hook 46P
Double Hammer Down 43P still can avoid some lows with correct distance
Rising Hammer 43PP delay is still there, avoided a few highs with it
Tornado Punch 41236P old 466P, still half-circ (I think), still can become unblockable
Low Knuckle 2P
"Body karu upper) 2_3P can go to threat stance, can't recall if it still staggers like it used to on MC
Smash Upper 3P
Double Upper 3PP
Rasing Upper (?) 33P
Upper Kick K, G-cancel, can very speed of cancel to either move Jeffry forward or backward
Knee ATTACK 6K floats stupidly high on MC
Knee Push 4K still floats on MC, but with no more 2K+G, don't know if you can combo anymore
Wild Hook 4KP still knocks opponents to his stomach (for ring out or wall)
Toe Kick 2K TKOD seems easier to do, I only attempted once and I got it no problem... but that could just be luck or the fact I inputted 44
Toe Kick Hammer 2KP
Side Kick 3K seems safer, but without 2K+G, I doubt you can combo with a wall on MC
Body "Karu" kick 1K is now is only fast true low now, range is decent, but no 2K+G
"Bodeck" Ru P+K
Double Crush P+KP haven't seen new hit throw yet though
Middle Hell Stab 6P+K same as always, but seems safe and also due to Jeffry being a smaller model (unlike in VF5) it might have regained the only evasion abilities
Head Attack 46P+K
Megaton Knuckle 43P+K
Rising Double Hammer 41236P+K old 466P+K, floats extremely high now (esp. on MC), its kinda amazing, feels faster (maybe)
Hell Dunk Elbow 2P+K still puts opponents in a crouched state for low throws
Hell Dunk Hammer 214P+K old 64P+K
Destruction Wave K+G does a shit ton of damage now
Heel Drop 6K+G still staggers standing guard, not sure if it is still half-circ
Kenka Kick 66K+G old 66K
RUN (running body press) P+K/(running hip attack) K+G both are stupid/funny ways to end a round with much risk
Threat (Catch Blow) 6P leads to hit throw, haven't tried it yet
Threat (supisutoreeto) P+K

BT all the same and still no easy way to get to BT (((

Same wall attack

Throw-wise I didn't explore much, but I'm glad that his old 1P+G is still in as 44P+G (hate the input though).

All of the above moves are, for all intensive purposes, the same as they have been, aside from new animations for the attacks and the down-animations, like PPP's flop (haven't tired combos after it yet though).

New shit:
1P_PP hits s.ll this is the new low punch attack, I think it requires MC to combo for knock down, but when guarded... you're quite fucked
2_3PP is a follow up from is old, unused, attack (I think he got this in R), looks like it might be half-circ, hits high
KPK_KPP the old KKP is gone, with KPP+K+G -> threat stance, KPP is the high kick to mid punch to high headbutt, and the string with K ends with a knee, all variations are difficult to add into combos unlike the old KKP
66P+K is now the tackle like move with a hit throw, the range is decent and the damage is good, not sure if it has evasive properties yet.
4P+K is a mid headbutt attack, seems like the only application I could find is setting up heavy staggers by walls. Might be evasive towards highs, but not sure yet.
3P+K is a new mid gut punch, leads to crumple, but a different kind, seems redundant with 6P+K and 3K+G
1P+K is a weird move on block, and when it hits it's a mach-breaker style attack doubt it can lead to wall splat, but who knows, it is a slow high　when blocked you've got a few options:

1P+KP is a mid punch that crumples on MC (not sure about normal)
1P+KK is a low that knocks down on MC (not sure about normal), and near a wall it can splat
1P+KP+G leads to a catch throw, but I haven't had it land yet (got 2p'd out of it)

3K+G is the new mid-gut kick (YEAAAH! is the noise he makes and camera shakes) that can lead to 90ish damage after a bounce with 214P+K, seems safe on block, nice range, looks like a half-circ, but dunno for sure
2K+G is a slow low with shit range, from experience it gives advantage on hit (unlike most lows), but damn... slow and no range
1K+G gives a nice flop on hit, but　the range is deceptively short, so as a stand alone attack it seems bad, but it seems like a good attack for off-the-ground attacks (failure to tech-roll)

Threat now has a slower animation (as you can see), has a built in low damage, high attack, and I'm pretty sure because of that you can't buffer in an attack (like old Threat->K)
P is a mid punch
PP is a mid head butt
K is a slower mid kick that leads to a nice hit throw; near walls this looks like it can be extremely dangerous as I think you can combo after it
K+G same as regular K+G

I'm not sure if I'm missing anything else...

Overall, Jeffry isn't that much different (high damage combos with high flexibility), but the new system weakens his throws greatly and when Eileen/Sarah can get around 100 without a wall, he doesn't do that much more. Threat seems weaker now, but maybe that's because I used to use it as a stand alone thing from a moderate distance, so I think it has more utility when you use it in strings (so the auto hit will/can connect), so it isn't as bad as I thought. You just need to be close (as a machi player... bleh).

Also the loss of an actual low attack with the utility that 2K+G once had, means that there isn't much reason to duck (maybe his 1P+K? but so far that move seems kinda "meh"). But shit, time will tell.

Nonetheless, he is still fun to play simply because of all the combo abilities he has.

 

NICE!!! This is what I'm talking about, thank you very much!

 

Been playing only Jeffry lately, so here are more observations:

Threat Stance is the same, I guess, if you weigh the strengths and weaknesses.

For one, it kinda sucks for oki. Moves come slowly out of it and it isn't evasive towards lows at all. Up close after 2_3P, 4P, P6P, it's really good (as long as you guess right, hurrrdurrr)

Threat PP leads to a flop like after 46P+K, I've had the PP combo quite a bit, but not sure if it natural (let's just the players here have no idea what they're doing).

Still haven't been able to land a Threat 6P throw combo, I've either been 2P'd out of it, or it it hits them.

P+K, same as above, but hopefully it hasn't been changed much, but MC hit is too good (or at least it was).

K+G and K>P+G are both crazy good.

TKOD: I attempted it a good 100+ times, got it nearly every time, so it goes without saying Sega made it much much easier to input. (before, like in vanilla or evo, I'd get it only 1/5-2/5, I haven't played VF in more than half a year before coming here)

3K+G is strong as hell, and I'm pretty sure now that is is half-circ. Leads to crazy damage from a move that is same on block.

It might have been a fluke, but I had 66P+K tackle go under Lion's K, so it just might as well be a "high-crush" move, though it might be too early to say (need to watch vids:/).

3K is still the ultimate long-range whiff punisher by far, and since back dash has been improved and jumps are faster, it is much easier to bait rising kicks. Need to test 33P, as it was an excellent rising K punisher in Vanilla.

1P isn't a bad move, it's just like a high-crushing 6P: just learn to hit-check.

KPP/KPK are all very delayable, and are a good way to hit someone who tries to attack after an evade.

Shun's 2K+G goes clean under 6P at mid-long range. (fucking shun)

1P+K knocks down mach-breaker style on normal hit. Still feels like a mediocre move.

4P+K/3K is awesome against an opponent with the wall to their back, with the correct range, mix in K+G.

The range on 1K isn't all that bad, though I feel like I'm at disadvantage on MC.

Maybe it is just me, but 6K's range feels just a bit shorter, I've had it whiff in my old "goldie-locks-zone."

Hit checking/delaying for 3PP and 4KP is much much easier/better now, holy shit.

Other than sobering or having a suggestive pose, I can't find a use for air throws.

I just wish this town had better VF players (tons of Tekken heads though)

 

Yeah it seems like Jeffry can't zone as well as he could before, especially with + being changed, so you're kinda forced to fight in close more times than often... did a 'one step forward, one step backward' move as far as it launching higher, but the range is shorter (I remember discussing the launch height previously)...

Know any new setups/combos with Jeffry???

 

Combo-wise, I haven't seen many videos so I don't know the most powerful ones, but the ones I've been able to do.

3PP
2P 2KP
2P 66PP
2KP
66PP

33P/6K/41236P+K (from lowest to highest float)
P 66PP
P 43PP
P 43P+K 2KP (stomp if no quick roll)
P 43P+K 4KP (good if wall is to the side)
P 43P+K 4PK (good if wall is in front), tack on 2K (need to try TKOD set ups) or just 2KP Does a shit ton of damage (+50%)
P 43P+K KPK (kinda finicky, I think it works best in open stance)
66PP for Taka

46P/3K+G
214P+K P6PP (works on even Taka)

1K+G
dash 2P 66PP
66PP for Taka

3P+K/46P+K/Threat PP
2P 66PP/43PP

Wall combos I'm working on...

More or less, it's the same.

Setup-wise; if there were better players around here this would be a worthwhile question. Here in this part of Kyuushuu, the opponents I've played against are:

*The CPU (by far the most)
*Old men who play knockout trial special mode to unlock orbs to dress up their character (they do really silly, anti-ai shit, but if you watch them play for a few minutes you know what they'll do when you play them)
*Tekken players waiting for a console to open up and see a Gaijin testing out combos, and they probably think "I can fuck him up." I've learned to stop trying to throw them (they're always attacking, and just Backdash 43PP/P_2P_6P->hitcheck->6K is enough to kill these guys.

So when it comes to setups, I haven't been able to come up with anything sophisticated, just things that I think will (and they do) work.

 

Played against a decent Lion player today, learned a few things and proved a few theories.

When getting up, an opponent has no lows to be afraid of, because Jeffry doesn't have many. In vanilla, when you know they're going to stand and block, what do you use? 9K, but in FS it is gone. This is where 1P+K comes in. I'm still not sure if a guarded 1P+K leads to a free 1P+KP/1P+KK follow up, but I got it the P variant to work twice (maybe due to a WTF factor from my opponent). On normal hit it leads to a flop, nice damage. I'm gonna try to use it more, as well as 1P+KK to find out for sure what the properties are (and learn what 1P+KP+G is).

Or course if they start evading, use K+G and get that beefy counter hit damage.

Threat stance, for sure (100%) only has utility within P/2P range after P+K/4P/2_3P/P6P. Also, you can't ever just use threat stance and not attack, before you'd return to normal stance immediately after both feet touch the ground. Now you have to endure a long stupid animation that with get you launched. So when you do go into threat, you need to commit to an attack.

Threat PP is unsafe on block (maybe elbow?), but it combos on normal I think.

Landed Threat 6P hit throw only once (and it surprised me so I could only think to do 6K+G), but same combo opportunities are still available. Will test out more, as well as use threat P+K more and try to test out hit/counter frames.

I consider Jeffry my homie. He is not as bad as many people here make him out to be.

 

What's the best option out of threat right now??? I don't think I'll be using it as much as I did in VF5 ver. C... If I do use it, it will probably be more for oki on wakeup...

 

Final Showdown Jeffry Frame Data

This command list isn't complete. I'll go through what needs to be completed.

I'm not sure that I've translated all of the move names correctly. In particular, Sunlight Body Upper, Geyser Blow, Geyser Head, Dynamic Hole, and Affliction Wave.

All moves that launch or stun are listed as "Down." I'm not that familiar with Jeffry, and Myke isn't sure what he wants to do with the fact that the Masters Guide isn't more specific.

I can't translate the note on his down attack.

 

The best option is based on what you think the opponent will do.

P is the fastest attack (hits mid), and PP combos on normal hit leading to a nice combo.

6P is used if the opponent will guard (leads to throw on hit or guard and nice damage I bet)

K is slightly slower than P, but leads to a beefy hit throw, and if done be a wall you can combo, good for those who fear 6P/K+G and duck.

P+K staggers, use if you think they'll block.

K+G kills evade for big damage (and with a wall splat...)
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Now if you guys ever get the game, I still don't think the new threat is designed for oki at all.