Vanessa is 'too cheap'?

Right, then I say characters should be balanced on the assumption of 100% execution. So far I believe they have been. Nobody is saying that a more difficult move couldnt be better than an easier move, thats not what this is about. What Im saying that one shouldnt make overpowered moves and think its ok if the move is difficult enough.

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Related question - if this is true, why is knee better than yoho? </div></div>
Its not black/white case. Yoho does more damage and floats higher. Knee is 1 frame faster and hits better. Knee is better than yoho in some cases.

 

Word. Having people complain about Vanessa being cheap keeps getting more hilarious all the time. I just started to play Vanessa myself to learn her shit and I was laughing how can people consider her to be cheap. People just dont know how to play against her and thats it (Im not saying I know btw).

 

It's 17 frames from standing (zomg wtf vanessa 13f mid broken) and requires counterhit to do anything useful.

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throws that do more damage than vanessa's,
</div></div>

Pai's max damage throws do 60 and 50. DS Vane's max damage throws do 62 and 58, not including grounded damage.

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sabakis and reversals second only to Aoi,
</div></div>

She can sabaki elbows and punches, yeah. Anything else requires the very specific bokutai setup; you might as well complain about eileens bkfK. Vane clearly has better sabaki. Akira has better reversals (low reversals). If you understood pai, you'd be complaining about the window on her inashi, not her sabaki or reversals

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Oh and sweeps, those are handy for oki, vane has none of those either.
</div></div>

What is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif ?

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I'm wondering, is the guard button disabled for Pai players?
</div></div>

I'm wondering, how is it that I know things about vanessa that you apparently dont, and I don't even play her? I'm also wondering how

7suited plays pai
Pai == cheap (inarguable, by the way)
: Vanessa == not cheap

works out.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The two moves you are fixating with are good, just not her best. Boomerang Hook ftw. </div></div>

If you don't understand the difference between SAFE defensive mids, and RISKY offensive highs, I don't know why i'm even trying . . .

 

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=140799

 

What are you talking about? It has been pointed out, knee isn't always better than yoho. But more importantly, Akira doesn't win every tournament. If execution difficulty determined move strength there's pretty much no way he couldn't win. In fact this entire thread goes a long way to defeating any counter arguments... it's a discussion of Vanessa's moves being easy to perform and extremely good, but it's fairly clear she's not unbalanced either 'cause guess what... she doesn't win every tournament either. (Don't take this as me commenting on the "cheap"-ness stuff... I'm staying out of that one)

That SRK thread that got linked is pretty awesome, though.

 

Do you really think anyone would use yoho for the additional damage if knee was executed with just /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and was still a frame (or two frames) faster and only -13 on block?

The point is not zomg akira borken. My point is:
A. We don't know how AM2 balanced the game
B. Knee doing similar damage, at a faster speed, and much safer recovery than yoho, is evidence that execution difficulty is considered when designing characters.

How does this relate to vanessa? Unlike what one of the OPs was trying to claim, her execution isnt that intricate; I personally think this matters for tiers, and "cheapness"

 

Dear KoD,

I am indeed very sorry to have dared mention Pai's throws, i've just went over her move list and apparently they're not as damaging as i thought. She does have more break options though. Irrespective, please allow me to answer your other interesting points:

Now, now, n.gif is also 14 frames from standing (if you can execute it perfectly of course). Unlike Aoi's which appears to be a true 13-frames mid (double handed too).

Also, contrary to vanessa, Pai has lots of options from a crouched position, so yes, i don't count the extra 1 frame to crouch dash, sorry.

She can sabaki elbows and punches, yeah. Anything else requires the very specific bokutai setup; you might as well complain about eileens bkfK. Vane clearly has better sabaki. Akira has better reversals (low reversals). If you understood pai, you'd be complaining about the window on her inashi, not her sabaki or reversals</div></div>

I beg to differ kind sir: Pai can reverse High and Mid punches, High and Mid elbows, High, Mid and Side Kicks and also Knees. As far the "she has to be in bokutai to sabaki lots of stuff", althought it's very interesting, it's also null since she can enter Bokutai as easy as Lei Fei can enter his own all-sabaking stances.

Also please bear in mind, that i am not complaining (as you witfully suggested i should complain about Eileen too) i was merely trying to convey to seven5suited, him being a well-faring Pai player, that trying to call Vanessa cheap is quite similar to the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

What is + ?</div></div>
It's a full circluar low that (unlike Pai's who knocks down on any hit) is on negative frames on hit (-5) and provides no advantage whatsoever on counterhit (+/-0).

I'm wondering, how is it that I know things about vanessa that you apparently dont, and I don't even play her? I'm also wondering how

7suited plays pai
Pai == cheap (inarguable, by the way)
: Vanessa == not cheap

works out.</div></div>

Ah but you don't my dear. You don't.

Also, as far the Pai comparison goes, i would like to refer you to my previous point about the pot calling the kettle black.

If you don't understand the difference between SAFE defensive mids, and RISKY offensive highs, I don't know why i'm even trying . . . </div></div>

Well, you see, + is not that risky - it's a mere -5 on block. On the contrary is at -8 on block so no fuzzy guard there, if i am not mistaken. is not that safe either, since Jeneric has many a time pointed out that Vanessa is punishable in closed foot stance.

Given Boomerang Hook's potential for a half-your-lifebar float, on any character, irrespactive of weight and foot position, (forgive me for repeating this but i feel you might have overlooked it) half-circular failed evade punisher (thanks for reminding me Sebo ) you must surely realise that -5 on block is quite the deal breaker, contrary to Shadow Slicer's and Defensive Elbow's single-hit damage.

I hope this post might enlighten your views on the subject

EDIT: post edited due to me being elnightened in turn by Sebo's and KoD's comments.

 

edit

/fuel to the fire? lol

 

Dude, that was a joke. you calling pais scoop 16 frames is like me calling vanessa's ws P 13 frames. Sorry your sarcasm detector isnt working. Like I already mentioned earlier in the thread, I clearly know she has to crouchdash to get an elbow.

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As far the "she has to be in bokutai to sabaki lots of stuff", althought it's very interesting, it's also null since she can enter Bokutai as easy as Lei Fei can enter his own all-sabaking stances.
</div></div>

No. In order for pai to sabaki anything other than fists and elbows, she has to
1. get into bokutai
2. get you to block her sweep ( or get hit & TR it )
3. get you to respond to the blocked sweep with something other than a lowkick, standing guard, evade, etc etc.

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that trying to call Vanessa cheap is quite similar to the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.
</div></div>

This isnt a pissing contest about who plays what. I don't have any problem with vanessa players, other than them denying she's cheap. Cheap is cheap, doesn't matter who's pointing it out.

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It's a full circluar low
</div></div>

Sure sounds like a sweep to me. Yep, full circular, low, SW class.

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Ah but you don't my dear. You don't.
</div></div>

I know she's got a sweep, and that you cant punish true lows with her boomerang hook.

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Well, you see, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is not that risky - it's a mere -5 on block. On the contrary /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is at -8 on block so no fuzzy guard there, if i am not mistaken. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is not that safe either, since Jeneric has many a time pointed out that Vanessa is punishable in closed foot stance.
</div></div>

Boomerang hook is safe on guard, but has about as much range as vanessa's dick, and is duckable / interruptable by low attacks at up to -16, hence why its not all that safe despite the guard frames. It's got a totally different purpose than ffK or defensive elbow.

 

Lol thaks Sebo, forgot the half-circular part, silly me

It's a sweep that doesn't... sweep.

And why would i need to punish lows with Boomerang Hook when i can do it with her best move, bone crush middle

Of course i could try to do something fancy like + : + : like Sebo suggests but hey, i'm a cheap vanesa scrub, right? i go for the crouch stagger when i see it

Boomerang Hook has a bigger range than you think - i invite you to go to the dojo, have the training dummy on block and do + from a distance. Watch the opponent do a block animation even though the hook seems to whiff them

 

select count( command ) from vf5_b where class = 'SW' and CH != 'down';
260

ZOMG! just like 7% of the TOTAL MOVES IN THE GAME, its a sweep that doesn't knock down.

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And why would i need to punish lows with Boomerang Hook when i can do it with her best move, bone crush middle /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
</div></div>

Yes, indeed, why would you advocate that people do that? Lets take a look: http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/183899#Post183899

My guess? cause despite your posturing, you really dont understand VF any better than I do.

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Boomerang Hook has a bigger range than you think - i invite you to go to the dojo, have the training dummy on block and do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif from a distance. Watch the opponent do a block animation even though the hook seems to whiff them /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif </div></div>

Wow, you mean the cpu blocks even when a move might whiff? Ok, you win then. I actually have played around with boomerang hook in the dojo, using it to actually hit the cpu, and online against actual people, and the range isn't all that great. Even if the range was better, its still high (not special high like you seemed to think). Totally different move from a safe full circular mid.

 

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif hit throw with proper OKI (which can rival /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif damage wise!!!) >>>>> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif should be your punisher for -17i until you can get /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif on crouch recovery attacks.

 

What do you mean "We don't know how AM2 balanced the game". It's not like they're in some black hole making random changes and hoping it'll work out for us somehow. Now it is hard, if not impossible, to follow their work if you don't speak japanese... but all their balance changes are inspired by watching high level play in japanese tournaments. (Also note: high level tournament play is the forum where people are least likely to make any execution mistakes whatsoever, which is specifically *why* the game is balanced for 100% execution)

As for some of Akira's more ridiculous moves... honestly I think there's a legacy component. That is, he's had a the 1-frame knee move for so long, that they can't change the command, or they'd disappoint fans. Equally, they can't make yoho universally better, or they'd be eliminating the knee in practice, if not in actual fact. That said... yes, if knee was easier, people would still use yoho... more damage is always better when that damage is guaranteed, which in many cases, it is.

 

As usual Sebo you are right, and I remember Jeneric advocated the greatness of + too. I just use hoping for a crouch stagger cause i can't consistently do the front sleeper after + , sorry.

I didn't get the / part though - i thought that i was supposed to use in those situations?

EDIT: edited a bunch of posts - most notably the "instead of doing defensive elbow duck and do Boomerang Hook" has been replaced by a "duck and do Stomach Crush".

FIXED.

Also, KoD, you're picking all of the rising attack sweeps that don't knockdown on hit that way - most of the ordinary sweeps do knockdown on hit (for example Lion's + doesn't but he also has the choice of + and + , both knockdown on hit). So, yeah, i still think vane's sweep is the worse one in the game. Although that's understandable, i acknowledge it would have been too much to have both a knockdown sweep AND shadow slicer.

 

I mean that all we have to go on is what they've done; we have no idea what their intention was ( make it easier for scrubs, make higher execution chars do more damage, whatever).

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(Also note: high level tournament play is the forum where people are least likely to make any execution mistakes whatsoever, which is specifically *why* the game is balanced for 100% execution)</div></div>

I disagree; although i dont have any data, i'd guess high level tournament play is more conservative. I don't watch lots of kage tourney vids; are there lots of DPoD punishment?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> which in many cases, it is. </div></div>

FSV of many cases that == well less than 5% of the moves in the game, disproportionately spread between shun and kage.

 

I outline /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif in my Punishment thread .

Use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif_/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif against low attacks that suck hard on block, i.e. Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

----
The person who posted this does not have Ver. C and doesn't know WTF he is talking about.

 

I disagree; although i dont have any data, i'd guess high level tournament play is more conservative. I don't watch lots of kage tourney vids; are there lots of DPoD punishment?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> which in many cases, it is. </div></div>

FSV of many cases that == well less than 5% of the moves in the game, disproportionately spread between shun and kage.</div></div>

We know exactly what AM2 intentded with their changes... now I don't know offhand the reason for every single change, but someone does, here's some examples:

Eileen's PP6P nerf: In Ver. B this move was guaranteed if the first P landed, was safe on block, and gave her nitaku on hit... it dominated her gameplay, and she dominated other characters by using it.

Lau's stance K stagger: This change occured because AM2 thought his stance was being underused. They added the stagger to make his options from stance slightly more powerful, to get players to want to use it more often. This change increases the number of viable moves Lau is considered to have, thereby making his game more strategically interesting for both people playing as him and against him.

There isn't a single change they've made that was just a complete mystery to the community. You just need to dig around to find the explanations, cause they aren't really common knowledge (i.e. most people don't care).

And you're completely wrong about high-level tournament level play too... it's ridiculously fast paced, and getting to be that good at VF requires mastery of defensive options... things like ETEG are used constantly, because at that level, you die if you can't do it. And honestly, that stuff is way, way harder execution wise than any canned juggle combo in the game. There's a reason people watch tournament videos on youtube to get better... those players smash your face in with max damage combos constantly, cause it's the best way to win, there's nothing conservative about it.

 

No, those are educated guesses (probably correct ones). You don't know what AM2's overall _goal_ in balancing VF5 is (apparently, neither do they judging from the decrease in overall game balance), you just have guesses based on what you can observe.

As for completely wrong about high level tournament play . . . all I know is that supposedly Itazan does single throw escape, and that I've personally seen yosuke revert back to jacky stomp after missing heel sword combos during the socal tourney. This is not intended as an insult to either one of them, obviously . . . it's smart play to do what works consistently, and I don't think you can possibly fault yosuke's work ethic.

 

Those aren't educated guesses... they're published differences in gameplay that are used as part of the basis for tierlists. The fact that you couldn't figure out their intentions does not make it some big secret. AM2 is actually fairly involved with the japanese community, and they actually host their own tournaments specifically for the purpose of determing what changes to make, and to playtest those changes.

All tournament players are going to revert to a slightly simpler move if they screw one up repeatedly... but they went for the big one first. Itazan does single throw escape because he only needs one to win... it's called yomi, try it sometime. Yosuke actually has been living like 5 miles away from me for a while now (unfortunately he recently left;and I've played him on a number of occasions. He's a freakin' monster, and I've seen him pull out over half the cast, do all their "hardest" moves on demand, and perform combos, guaranteed or not, that none of us up in washington had ever seen before. The divide between him and people complaining about Vanessa's 18i elbow is so wide that you can hardly consider them to be playing the same game >.>

 

^ Dang, cocky. Take that, KoD!

Haha

Hahaha