Top 5 best moves in the game?

It would be most characters best move, but for Jacky it's just another move. AM2 lol

 

Since i'm all up in this thread anyway i wanted to say;

Even at my level of play it's apparent how wide the gap from top to bottom in this game is. It's certainly wider than it was in Vanilla and that game had Lei Fei taking the piss. You certainly don't have to be at the highest level of play for it to matter in this game. You just need to have a pretty fundamental understanding of what's going on and ability to implement some simple option selects. After the that the game is about choices and risks and at the top characters quite clearly get far better choices and rewards for those, for far less risk.

Also, I think if people were to make the trip to japan they'd be pleasantly surprised. The level of the better players outside of Japan isn't so low as a lot of people keep saying. The elite players out there are something else, but they blow up the standard japanese players the same way they blow us up.

 

I see what youre saying. At the same time, my point is not that there isn't a noticable tier gap in this game's characters, especially compared to older VF's, because there is (still not as bad as Vanilla Sarah tho, but I digress ).

My point is that most non-japan-based players are NOT at a skill level where that tier gap even matters.

Spoiler: long, detailed example

Yes, even I can tell that western VF players skill overall have gone WAY up since vanilla (thankfully!), but we still have a long way to go. For example, say you are playing bottom tier Pai (I don't know Eileen well, so I'm using Pai as an example), and you are going up against an Akira, who's apparently near broken-tier.

Is the Akira player:
-Using max damage, character-specific combos? No? (reality: most western players don't do max damage)

-Responding to all of your punishable attacks at least -14 on block for a free 70+ damage combo? No? (reality: western VF players don't punish)

-Conditioning his opponent to block, thus trapping them into guard break setups (that is, if they even land the guard break combo)? No? (reality: western players are STILL dropping GB combos, 2+ years later. As a comparative personal pat on the back, players have seen me regularly land Sarah JF's with 4f windows in laggy international PSN connections, so I don't feel sorry for you at all if you can't land a GB combo. GT can do it, you can too, western VFers!)

-Adapting to opponents that learn to avoid GB by trapping them with Counter Hit setups? No? (reality: western VF players using strategy and conditioning? :/ c'mon. complaining about tiers is much easier, right @Pai~Chun?)

-Using ultra-cheap, ultra-powerful Akira-specific sideturn setups? No? (reality: The only western player I've even seen try this is Cozby)

-etc


Ok, well more than likely, is the Akira player:
-Throwing out tons of 66Ps and 666Ps and praying that you just run into one
-Using guard break every now and then when they feel like it, rather than actually anticipating your habits and conditioning you
-Using meh-damage universal combos,rather than max damage
-Playing auto-pilot, braindead easy stuff, because FS.


Same goes for the Pai player. Is he:
-Punishing every blocked Yoho or low attack (Akira doesn't have alot of punishable moves, but he still has some)? Punishing with max damage? No? That's important, otherwise he is leaving free damage on the table (as well as encouraging Akira to spam Yoho more), which is the Pai player's fault.

-Using Pai's extremely fast attacks (11f P,great forward-moving elbow,12f Chun/Yun double palm, 14f 9K,14f 2K,15f 6P+K, 14f K for CH launch, 16f from crouch 3P+K as nitaku choice after 2P) to bully Akira (who's slower) and take control of when he actually can attack Pai? Also using these fast attacks in Akira's face to stuff his attempts to use cheap, yet slow moves like Akira 3P+K? No?

-Using said fast Pai attacks to bait people into abare'ing into a juicy CH combo? No? I'm pretty sure that's basic Pai, and the whole reason to use her, right @Pai~Chun? Oh wait, Pai~chun just likes to run away and wonder why he loses when 2KK stops working, n/m.

-Using Pai's extremely long arms and legs to establish a superior spacing game when things don't go her way (thus, allowing her to STILL control the match flow)? No? Of course not, have you seen someone like @Pai~Chun play? Wait, you mean to tell me there's more to spacing/footsies than 2KK?


More than likely, the Pai player is just:
-running away
-mashing 2KK
-mashing 3P+K when opponent gets too close
-running away summore
-not thinking at all
-losing rounds because they get outdamaged, because (guess what?) they only use low damage/low reward stuff (like 2KK/3P+K)
-wash rinse repeat until inevitable loss of match, right @Pai~Chun? In fact, this flowchart represents alot, if not most of western Pai players I've seen.

tl;dr: Akira may be SSS tier, but it does not matter in the slightest if the Akira player is not using all of his tools effectively. The way people in the west use Akira, he is just B+ tier at best. Same concept goes with Pai.

The moral of the story is: if one or both of the players in a particular match are NOT using VF fundamentals and character strengths to their MAXIMUM potential, tiers are meaningless. Western players are alot better than vanilla days(imo), but aren't anywhere near good enough at maximizing the tools they have with their own characters, which should become WELL before complaining about another character's tools.

Aight, I'll end my rant here.


EDIT: All that being said, Eileen is honestly the only character in FS that I have a slightest hint of feeling sorry for. But guess what! She's STILL not as bad as Vanilla Sarah. Whooptie friggin doo. Not to mention that an Eileen has won SBO of all things before. So, actually, I don't feel sorry for her at all! Western VF'ers should complain less and level up more, right @Pai~Chun?

 

I get what you're saying Blackstar, still i disagree. The issue is that it's not even that the character themselves are bad or anything, more that this games system caters for certain characters and forces others to take risks to win.

I'll use my own example; Akira. you don't have to be good with Akira for him to have an advantage in this game over most other characters. It's given to him by virtue of his size and weight added to the fact that you can play the character without ever going past -5. This skews things in his favour so long as the user can fuzzy effectively.

You say about maximising tools, but i don't even think it's even necessary. Characters at the 'top' all have blatantly easy to use stupid strong tools and do loads of damage even with easy mode combos. If anything, it's the weaker characters who have to maximise what they have just to have a chance. The concequences for dropping a combo or messing up your oki are far higher for the 'bottom' characters.

Now I'm not saying the supposed weaker characters can't win at all, but i think it's simply not true to say something like Akira is actually B unless you're a great player. A better player can always win and a bad player doesn't become great using a strong character, but equally a strong character doesn't become weak because they're being used by a bad player. It's just the player who is bad.

 

I guess this right here is where our fundamental disagreement is, which is ok. Nothing wrong with disagreeing, also nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

Akira is like a tool box. No different from a hammer or a shovel or a screw driver. If you pick Akira in character select and put the controller down, guess what, he's not going to do anything for you (the only characters that can are Vanessa and Jacky, lol, thx AM2). He can't win on his own, he will just stand there and take a beating until the player comes in and tells him what to do.

That established, with Akira being merely a toolbox, it is up to the player to use those tools to build a winning playstyle. I can have all of the best tools from Black and Decker or Home Depot or whoever, but guess what, if I don't know how to build a house, I still can't build a house. The same goes for Akira. if you as a player can't/don't use his tools properly, guess what, you can't use the exact things to which people consider him SSS rank in the first place. So yes, its definitely possible to have a D-tier Akira player (see any n00b Akira), though he definitely can be potentially SSS.

So if someone uses S-tier Akira, but they don't use Guard Break at all? Guess what? THAT's not an S-tier Akira!

 

I believe and feel for you guys with nerfed characters, believe me. I know the pain.

But guess what.

STILL not as bad as Vanilla Sarah. 'Cry me a river' is what I honestly think!


And Jeff's not even a black man! The System ain't worried about no Jeff!

 

Vanilla Lion was closer to Lei Fei than Eileen is to Akira in FS. It's the system itself. Every character has pretty much the same basic tools, jab, 2p, 14f mid and throw. It's just that in FS these tools aren't so good comparatively anymore. You can actually just backdash all of that stuff.

 

Guess what.

Still not as bad as Vanilla Sarah! You mean bottom tier Eileen is still a competitive character?? Madness!

 

I'm saying Lion was a worse character than Sarah in Vanilla and still competitive. He had a 13f 2P. Sarah wasn't too bad in Vanilla. Just a big nerf coming from VF4

 

I can go all day with you in disagreements (nobody was even close to Vanilla Sarah bad, that's stuff of legends).

I'll just say that that wasn't just a big nerf on Sarah, that was a mugging!



But at the same time, I got frustrated, yeah, but I also used that as an excuse to level up, rather than complain like alot of westerners! And going from laughably bad to C-tier isn't great either but I'm still keeping the same attitude about it!

 

I also remember Slide being a great player -- and guess what, great players take bad situations and turn them into advantages (or they just pick someone else, rather than whine about how they lost because of x character)! I saw and played great players like him, and because of that, I made that my own goal, rather than complain and kick rocks about tiers! That doesn't make Vanilla Sarah any less horrible. You guys should've given her a try back then and then come back to me about how she wasnt that bad

 

@Pai~Chun @Jacko @MarlyJay @VFDC

Let's level up together, Western VF'ers!