Side Topic from VF5FS Online Rank Titles Thread

Uh, actually no. You were owned, dude.

 

A troll never gets owned.

edit: unless they get banned ofc...

 

I was going to post something about martial arts grades anyway, so I'll just put this stuff here. Prepare for counter-wall-of-text.

In VF4, you can start getting demoted from 1st Dan. When I was playing VF4 in arcades, I went through the 10th Kyu -> 1st Dan loop a few times until I was good enough to deserve my Dan grade. If I remember correctly, 3 or 4 losses in a row was usually practically a confirmed demotion.

We've got things fairly good with VF5FS.

Another note is that you guys don't understand the weight of a black belt.

In those very traditional Japanese martial arts schools, you don't even get to train for weeks. You sit and watch for your first sessions, after which you're promoted to scrubbing the floor of the dojo. After weeks of that, you finally get to training, starting from 10th Kyu. Many modern dojos start adults off at 7th Kyu. Traditional gradings are usually held half yearly, meaning if you start from 7th Kyu, assuming you don't fail any gradings, you're looking at 4 years before you reach 1st Dan, which is when you get your black belt.(More traditional schools don't let people skip grades.)

The idea is that you start with a clean slate, thus a white belt. Over the years, dirt, blood and sweat stain your belt, showing off the hard work you have done to get to that point. The black belt is a symbolism of years of dedication to your art.

The black belt is not the end though. It's only the beginning. Once you have your black belt, it only means you're no longer a noob. Sure you might be able to beat up untrained commoners, but any other martial artist will likely take you out. This is where you start to become a real fighter, and in VF5FS, this corresponds to when people get up to the Hunter Rank. This is the rank that anyone can get to with a bit of time and dedication. You only get to progress further with some actual skill. Everyone who is Raider and above has a developed game plan for winning, no matter how basic or complex, honourable or cheap.

Once you hit 1st Dan, the time in between increases in grade usually goes up. It is a minimum of 1 year before 2nd Dan, and then 2 years before 3rd Dan. By the time you are 4th Dan, you've probably been training for at least 10 years and are considered badass enough to be the head of a dojo. Some martial arts have only a handful of people who ever make it past 8th or 9th Dan, and there might only be 1 or 2 10th Dans alive in the world at any given time.

That's why I kinda shake my head at people flying up to 10th Dan in a single day in VF5FS. If you're above 10th Dan, you should practically be a God. You should be exploding people by touching them with your finger. You should be able to kick people and have them not realise they're dead until the Grim Reaper has to do CPR on their soul because you hit them so hard.

Hope that makes you guys feel a bit better about ranked.

For me, I like having the rank there. It's a bit of a goal you can set for yourself to get to the next rank. If you lose and get demoted, well perhaps you're not good enough for that level yet. I get beaten by low ranking guys spamming 2P in laggy matches sometimes, but hey, I knew what they were going to do, I knew the restraints due to lag, and I still didn't manage to stop them, so they deserved those wins and I deserved the losses. I'd feel more embarressed getting all the way to Lord Master God Fist King and losing to something simple and silly.

However, no matter what your rank is on paper, you only actually get better by fighting people who are stronger than you.

Get out there and hunt those high ranking players, and show them you deserve a higher rank. Take the 20 losses and 5 demotions, so you can come back stronger and return them the favour. I've got a few guys on my personal hit list. When I can consistently beat those guys or at least match them, I'll know I've truely improved, and I'm not just bottom feeding on people weaker than me.

 

masterpo's rank is a fraud no wonder he's so upset...

 

Nice Post El-Twelve. I Only mainly head to Rank when i can't find any player matches. I try to find the ranks in my group or directly to me. I try to stick around to demote them but after a few loses they stop accepting fights and i just move on.

This new Rank system is cool because the new players want to feel part of something and they can which is a great thing for the longevity. I will say Good Job to Sega for achieving finding common ground for vets and noobs. You want a certaining Rank.. Go find that person and take it simply as that. Wins and loses don't mean shit. I seen Star players with 5000+ wins and 4000+ Loses. Thats all experience i would love to have.

At a arcade you can't stop a person from puling up a chair and jumping in. Money and Rank is on the line. Step ya shit up and get inivolved. Damn i miss the arcade in Manhattan.. Playland 1 and 2 where art thou?

 

If it's anything like the old arcades that used to be near me, more than likely they saw we all have consoles, arcade games were old hat as they felt they weren't going to make any money out of them and just replace the whole building with nothing but fruit machines, a couple of claw grabbers and a single DDR machine.

I miss the days when the arcades near me were similar to the ones in japan!

 

Disclaimer: I have never been to the Japanese arcade or any other VF arcade. I have no intentions of ever going to a Japanese arcade. So I am not qualified to post on what does or
doesn't happen in a Japanese arcade.

I am saying regardless to where you play your rank is a reflection of who you've played.

Happy are you saying your rank is not simply a reflection of who you've played?

Are you saying that all players in the arcades are advanced players? Are you saying there are no noobs, scrubs, spammers in arcades?

I am asking, because as I have stated I've never been to a Japanese arcade.

 

@akai, Good analogy. Makes sense.

Couple of Questions: We have a few players at Darkslayer Rank on PSN

1) Can we draw any conclusions at all about the skill level of those players based on those ranks? Or is it possible they just, cherry picked, their way, took advantage of lag and made it to the top of the list? (Honest question)Is it the case that the fact that these players have a rank of Darkslayer on PSN would have no bearing on how they would measure up against the players in the Japanese arcades?

Scernario:


We have 2 players: Player 1 has the Rank of Darkslayer earned by beating who ever sat down next to them at the arcade machines in Japan. Player 2 has the Rank of Darkslayer earned by any means necessary on the PSN.

Can I say for sure that the PSN player does not deserve the Rank of Darkslayer?

The consensus is that because PSN Darkslayer, could have selected, disconnected, lag-advantaged-his-way to Darkslayer,
that the Darkslayer rank earned in Japan is probably more legitimate than the Darkslayer rank acquired on the PSN right?

Observation: I have noticed this, that in general, the higher rank that I fight, the more skills the person has. So maybe PSN Ranks are not as fair, or legitimate as Ranks in Japanese arcades, but in general there is some degree of skill level associated with PSN ranks. (Typically) Higher Rank = Harder Fight

 

hmmm, kinda contradicting to me

all your whining seems your're clinging dearly to a title you just not deserve yet.

Do you really need a title in a videogame, which reflects your oh so wonderful real life? It's a shame it's kinda uncool to wear a shiny badge at your chest stating "PhD to become"

So harden the fuck up

cheers

 

@Mazzic78,

what sounds countradicting? I said rank is a reflection of who you've played. My rank is a reflection of who I've played.

What are you talking about?

I'm currently a Defender and I've never been demoted, so at the very least it means I had to cherry pick my way through a whole bunch of Hunters to get to Defender right?

My whining is about you shouldn't have to be demoted out of the "group" your in. So if you've made it to "mono" you should get demoted to nothing less than the lowest rank in that group.

what's contradicting my friend? I said I cherry pick my matches in ranked mode: I gave what my cherry picking criteria are. No secrets. So wtf is your point? I said
your rank is a reflection of who you've played. I think my rank is a reflection of who I've played (nothing more nothing less) I've said the Japanese player's ranks are a reflection of who they've played. What contradiction?

Mazzic78 if you going to jump on the 'Harden the Fuck up' bandwagon, at least bring something legitimate But its all good my friend, no harm, no fowl

 

you are rambling again

Point is my friend, there are no groups, it's just a different background every three titles. Where is the challenge in having a safety net every three ranks?

In saying contradicting (btw, hit spellchecking once in a while), i tried to point out, what should be clear.
On the one hand you want your rank to reflect what you are capable of, on the other hand you want to keep what you achieved once by cherry picking without having to defend it.
Ranking systems just don't work this way.

Where i am clearly with you is, it sucks being challened by the same high ranked player over and over again just for the fun to demote you. But at least i fight them two or three times before turning down their challenge further on.

cheers

 

While I have no experience with VF in Japanese arcades, I lived in Korea for a couple of years and played a lot of Tekken there. Any comparison between the value of online ranks and arcade ranks is absurd. There's nothing online similar to the concept of playing in an arcade that isn't your home arcade. Being in a new arcade, especially as a foreigner, meant anyone and everyone wanted to not just beat me, but demote my card. I couldn't sit there and say, "Well, this guy is higher rank. That guy I already played before. That other guy talked shit to me earlier. I just won't play them." Those are the guys you will HAVE to play if you want to play at all.

There's nothing logically wrong with the statement that rank is just a representation of who you have played. There is, however, a colossal flaw in assuming that having control over who you fight, when you fight them, and under what conditions is equally as representative of your skill as having to play anyone at anytime under sometimes more difficult circumstances. Take an online warrior of a certain rank and someone with the same rank in arcade for a match, and I'll put my money on the arcade player 100% of the time.

 

@Mazzic78

okay we're making progress. I'm glad

I never said I wanted rank to represent what I'm capable of.

I did say rank is simply a reflection of who you've played. My rank is simply a reflection of who I've actually played. I later added (from observation) that typically HigherRank = Harder Fight (but not always)

The groups I'm talking about are:

級。 Kyu Group
åç´š - 一級 10th Kyu to 1st Kyu

段。 Dan Group
åˆæ®µ - å段 1st Dan to 10th Dan

士。 Shi Group

者。 Mono Group

人。 Jin Group
将。 Shou Group

魔王。 Maou Group

拳è–。 Kensei Group
ç©ºæ‹³è– 1 Star - Darkslayer
æ’ƒæ‹³è– 2 Star - Grimslayer



Now these groups may not mean anything to you, that's okay, you can call them artificial divisions of of ranks into 3 if that helps.

My point on demotion is, if there is a floor in the Shi group that you cannot be demoted beneath, (e.g. you cannot be demoted from Hunter to Dan), Then why don't they make the first rank for each group the floor for demotion. And if there should be no floors, why not allow you to be demoted all the way back to 10th KYU? C'mon yall, this is not that difficult point to understand is it? Either you should able to be demoted all the way back to scratch, or you should only be demoted back to the first rank in your artificial group of 3

 

Does this sound fair?

Scenario: we have a GrimSlayer in the PSN now, and a couple of Darkslayers.

Okay, GrimSlayer keeps challenging one of the Darkslayers and beating him until he's a Conqueror. The keep playing until the once Darkslayer is now just a Destroyer. But the Destoryer is determined he keeps playing the GrimSlayer until He's been busted alway back to Hunter.

Now just for the sake of argument, the guy that once was the darkslayer is actually much better than everybody else except the one Grimslayer. But now his rank says Hunter.

I think that could happen in our current rank system. To me that's problematic. But if you don't think there should be limits to demotions, than why not allow someone to be demoted from DarkSlayer to 10th KYU

 

@Vlq I've never made that assumption

And your statement about the online warrior assumes that there are no arcade players that also play online

Question: We have A GrimSlayer, and a couple of DragonSlayers on the PSN at the moment. Do you think they deserve those ranks? Or are they frauds?

 

Once your obtained a certain rank. Your only wasting youre time that bar takes forever to move if you play opponents groups or ranks behind.

 

@masterpo

jeez, you are somewhat resistant to understand we got your point posts and posts ago. I just tried to help you to see it from another point of view.
But you keep droning on, repeating yourself over and over. Have your opinion all the way you want, i'm glad the VF5FS ranking system is the way it is - a good sorting algorithm once you reach named ranks - no precious savegames, no everlasting achievement, just competition from top to bottom.
A minor flaw is maybe, that there is no punishment for these nasty little disconnecting pricks, cough blackbeltspartan cough.

Mazzic out

 

"I never said I wanted rank to represent what I'm capable of." = A rank should be unbiased and represent what you're capable of. Otherwise it's an X-box Achievement not a "rank."

"I did say rank is simply a reflection of who you've played." = And because we can cherry-pick who we play against, the "rank" you speak of is biased based on each individual player, and therefore of no use as an actual "rank."

Which is why a lot of ppl are saying "Just don't worry about online rank it's meaningless."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point on demotion is, if there is a floor in the Shi group that you cannot be demoted beneath, (e.g. you cannot be demoted from Hunter to Dan), Then why don't they make the first rank for each group the floor for demotion.</div></div>
Before named ranks, you're a newbie and Sega is holding your hand so you don't ragequit forever (like I did with SSF4). After named ranks, Sega assumes you've hardened the fuck up since you've persisted this far. Handholding is over. Just be glad Custom Match is still an option even after you achieve named rank; in the online competitive PC games I know of, you can only advance in rank by automatching (no Custom Matches, no cherry-picking).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does this sound fair?</div></div>
It sounds very fair, because in your scenario, the Darkslayer voluntarily fights the Grimslayer even though he is being demoted. The Darkslayer is not seeing "Grimslayer", he's seeing "this guy plays a mean Lion and I need more practice against Lion." Clearly, to him the fight is all, and he's happy he's gaining experience against a stronger opponent rather than trying to hold on to a biased rank that has no value for measurement.