Ready for a new flame?

Andy wrote:

"for now, I think most people believe VF'ers dont play other fighting games seriously due to the way most NAVF'ers discuss other fighting games."

yeah, I think it's time to changte this impression. Most of the VF players I know dabble in at least one other game. If you want to scene to grow, you HAVE to attract more players. I think starting with T5 and DOA players is a good place. DOA's audience is about to get even bigger with the 360 on the horizon, and as a community, they're trying to do a similar thing (lot of hardcore DOA people, who like DOA3.1, want to get more serious about gatherings & tournaments offline, there's a lot of discussion about these things in that community). T5 people will probably jump at any chance to have a tourney.

Seriously, you stand to double or triple attendance at a VF event. Worth a try. When I was goofing off with T5, guys at the arcade told me they wanted to try VF, but didn't have an "in" to get into it. It's a perfect chance.

If for no other reason, to return the favor that the Sf and Tekken communities have shown us. Look at people like Tragic, Tomhilfigger, WCMaxi, all BIG names in other communities who've given Vf a chance, and will probably do so again with VF5. These people are taste-makers. In the video for Evo2k5 which listed the "vote-for" games, VF4 was displayed first. The best way, I think, is to re-kindle these existing channels (Get VF back at Evo, back at TiT etc) AND get them to come our way by hosting events for their games too.

Bryan

 

I haven't posted too much about VF lately but I wanted to post this.

I know people have a problem with how Shou says things, and I agree that the way he does say things isn't quite helpful.

However, I'm going to play the devil's advocate and say that I think he has a point. I feel like sometimes people around here are sometimes guilty of 'groupthink', IE, we all have similar biases and we're not realizing it.

Basically, what I think Shou is trying to say, is that even though we are trying to surmise strategies on how exactly to raise NAVF to a higher level, the attitude of NAVF players just isn't going to allow us to reach that level.

Now, I'll be the first to say that I’m nowhere as good as most people on this forum, despite being in Japan for a year (just got back a week ago). However, I realized a few things about VF that I really didn’t understand in the past:

1. If you want to get good at VF, you have to put in a LOT of work. VF becomes more work than fun, sometimes.
2. Getting really good at VF requires spending a lot of time with it, at the expense of other things in life that many people consider more important than a videogame.
3. In my opinion, and this is personally for me, VF gets more and more fun as you get better and better at it. (as well as any good competitive fighting game)

Needless to say, although there were times that I wanted to be the best I could possibly be at VF, I also realized that I didn’t want to spend all that time and money training, but instead I wanted to do lots of other things. However, whenever I stopped at Shinjuku to play a few games, I knew that if I only had invested more time, I could beat this spammy Lau, or whatever.

Now, I’m going to post my opinion but it’s not the end all be all of opinions …basically NAVF as a whole, as well as the many communities that make up NAVF, as well as the individual players need to figure out what their primary goal is.

A. Have fun.

B. Get Better

I think that usually you can do both things at the same time, but sometimes I feel like you can’t. At least for me that’s true. I want to get better, but in the environment I was in, and also in the environment I’m in now, I didn’t/don’t want to spend that time getting better, because I wasn’t at the level that getting better is ‘fun’. I was at the level where getting better required a lot of work, and I was both lazy, and involved in many other things besides VF.

It’s a paradox though, because the better you get, VF becomes much much more fun. I had so much fun at Beat Tribe the few times that I attended, because I was able to improve and beat people. It was also fun losing against really strong players, but it’s always more fun beating them (at least, for me). And good sportsmanship is part of that deal (and an important part of courtesy and fun for the other player).

As far as rough love, I think that playing for fun is great!! But you can’t expect to get better if you don’t put work into it. I’d encourage new players to get into the game by creating a friendly but competitive kind of environment. Tekken is enjoying lots of popularity and that’s because people are motivated to kick the really good, hold no punches player’s ass, IMO. (unfortunately, there will be some assholes but that’s just the nature of society, there are assholes in everything competitive)

Now let’s look at NAVF. What problems does it have?

1. Not enough players – This is because of several reasons, but mainly because VF doesn’t have enough avenues for mainstream players to pick it up(here’s hoping for a multi-console release as well as decent support in our non existent arcades), and because VF’s design isn’t as attractive to the gamer population of the US. I am looking forward to VF5, because already the designs of the characters are more anime-like and prettier, which is what the majority of game players in the US seem to like (look at Tekken’s popularity). The system is, I would argue, a lot more difficult than Tekken…but then I’d be getting into an argument I can’t really argue my side of.

2. Difficult to gather – The US is NOT Japan, it’s way the hell spread out. I can’t hop on a god damn train and go to a tournament, I have to FLY my ass there. And it’s expensive. Honestly, I’m in Cali and I have school, and I want to have a successful career when I graduate (hopefully in Dec). I normally won’t have the ability to fly to the east coast and play in a tournament… EVO is REALLY convenient for us in Cali because it’s right on our doorstep, but some people are so busy in Cali they can’t even make that! Priorities… New people getting into VF won’t be flying to tournaments, they need a strong local scene. Tekken seems to have a pretty strong local scene, right? It’s because of Namco’s good exposure on the PS2 and in arcades.

I think that people in different parts of the US should do whatever they can to cultivate their local scene. National events are great but only the most hardcore are going to be able to go. That’s not an environment that will cultivate new players.

3. Chest-banging – This is Shou too, and he knows it. This is the least of our problems, because a large scene will always have lots of this. However with everyone so fricking spread out, it’s hard to prove ourselves IRL, so we resort to ‘textbook vf’. It’s just the nature of the US, being so spread out.

Ok, so how can we fix NAVF? Well, honestly, a lot of it is completely out of our hands. VF is SEGA, not us. We can only do so much to influence SEGA to market VF5 aggressively in the US. I’m hoping that am2 is seeing Tekken’s success and working on following in their footsteps, with aggressive moves into the arcades and onto the next-gen consoles. Maybe while we’re at it, we can throw some e-mails at them, but whether they’ll have any affect at all is difficult to say.

What can ‘we’ do? Well, VFDC is already exactly what we need. The media thread is perfect for catching new matches. The moderators work hard to maintain the site. Honestly all we really need is new players!!

With new players, we’ll have a strong community, a stronger, better NAVF scene.

But I want to mention again, we should work on creating that ‘friendly but competitive kind of environment’. People have a different way of expressing their competitiveness, and some of it is unacceptable, but some of it is going to sting. You’re not going to want to get better unless you’re beaten. Which is why I kind of understand what Shou is saying. New players shouldn’t be babied. We should beat them, but help them get better at the same time. Tell them how to avoid the shit thrown at them, don’t keep too many secrets (I’d say don’t keep secrets at all, but part of the fun is analyzing your opponent and finding their weaknesses, it’d be too easy if they told you exactly how to win against their style).

I think that if we have this kind of competitive environment, we’ll find that we’ll grow even stronger bonds than before. Again, it’s a paradox, it’s not necessarily fun to get better, but when you’re better, the game gets a lot more fun, and it’s even MORE fun when both people are better. I want to kick Shou’s ass, that’s why I play. When I think about kicking Mukatsuku’s ass, or Shou’s ass in VF, it makes me want to get better! (Unfortunately, stuff just gets in the way).

So that’s what I think about NAVF.

Finally, I wanted to say that I love my memories of SoCal gatherings, and I loved the times I spent hanging out at Talis’ house with everyone, hopefully we can continue that in the future. Hopefully VF5 will come and rekindle the fire that is competitive Virtua Fighter!

 

Am I being interpreted wrong here as well? I'm not trying to discourage actions to further the NAVF scene. I'm just saying what many others have said before, that as of now, the current state of things is not a good environment for something like donations. The excitement is just not there right now for a VF event. People are waiting for VF5. Those that have FT will have money better spent if they just use it to play more FT. If you want to emulate VFR, that is not how they do things. Why don't you really try to do the samething by taking the money earned in the NYC FT machine and put it towards the event as donations? When VF5 hits, then by all means organize a national event. That will probably get people excited when VF5 hits, that is a much better course of action. Get in touch with Sega if you are dedicated, it would be a tremendous help and boost for your efforts.

Also, you never answered some of the concerned that I brought up, such as: Who is going to organize the event? Who's taking the donations? Where is the event planned to be held? What are your goals for the event as in how many units of VF? evo or ft? Tentative dates? All those questions should be answered or at least have an idea of before people would donate. Cause really, I don't see the problem of taking an entrance fee to get back the cost, unless you really don't think enough people will show up, which goes back to what I said previously in my last two posts.

Let me just make sure people are getting what I'm saying. I'm all for supporting more events, but it's only exciting for people if the event is something that's worthy of attendance. Without any knowledge of how things will be set up, it's difficult to persuade people to put in the effort. If you can take care of that, then you will see a much better response from people. It's absurd to think that I'm trying to poop on the party, I'm trying to help to shape this into something better. Andy, since you said you are an aggressive person, and when you see a good idea you go for it, why don't you aim to organize a national event for VF5 with Sega? Then it will really achieve your goal of emulating VFR.

Lastly, I'm glad someone like Ktallguy have the guts to say the things he did. The key to a strong community is the local scenes. Why don't you focus the effort into getting VF.net working in the US? That will go a long way into making VF more popular in the US.

 

KT, It was great fun meeting you at Nishispo and hanging out at Beat Tribe, I hope we can meet up again in Japan.

You wrote a really interesting post and i'm sure everyone is glad that you expressed your opinion.

You are right that NAVF'ers should decide what their goal is. You wrote:

A. Have fun.

B. Get Better

I believe though that in NAVF A is more important than B. At some point in order to get better, NAVF players will have to dedicate more time to the game. I just dont see the majority of NAVF players doing that. Since most people wont be able to see stance or do the fundamentals of VF, A will always be more important.

I think in Japan, VF is a serious activity and something people will train for. For NAVF players, VF is a casual social activity. If you want to encourage B, you have to emphasize A.

Sure this isn't so fair for people who have mastered the fundamentals, but it's also the reality of NAVF.

There is no NAVF scene, NYC included, where we have enough players to fill in all the character gaps and holes in our games. Only by going to Japan can you improve to that level.

The majorty of NAVF'ers just want to have fun playing the game at thier current level.

KT, man do I agree with one thing you wrote:

I think that if we have this kind of competitive environment, we’ll find that we’ll grow even stronger bonds than before. Again, it’s a paradox, it’s not necessarily fun to get better, but when you’re better, the game gets a lot more fun, and it’s even MORE fun when both people are better.

Too bad we don't all feel that way.

 

Srider, I know your reply is well intentioned. We probably have varying opinions on what will help the scene more.

The #1 thing to improve NAVF would be to get Sega involved, that much I agree on. The problem with this is that we are all kids in a sandbox in Sega's eyes.

There were threads like post your support for VF.net on VFDC. In reality the only way Sega will help NAVF is if they see some financial incentive.

Flatly put, Sega will never take us seriously. The only way Sega would take us seriously, is if they were presented with some proposal or data that indicated there was some benefit for them to devote resources.

I've taken steps to try on my own already.

In early VF4, version C days, I spoke to the VP of Segas Arcade division, based in Chicago, about getting test cabinets out to the USA. There was little interest. I called to speak to the president of Sega's Arcade division about promoting events. There was little interest.

I called the management of Sega of America directly and also spoke to Sega.com's division, which in 2001 was a seperate entity. There was no interest to help us unless we could provide them with some financial incentive.

With all of this I realize the best we could do is start doing things ourselves. Who's going to organize? The host city takes the main responsibility but follows the format setup by experienced gathering coordinators. For instance, equipment and AV expertise can come from NYC, management and logistics comes from Toronto, LA could help with forum posts since they have the most online members.

Who's taking the donations? A paypal account setup by me.

Where is it held? Rotated among cities who are given 6 months advance notice with firm dates in either March or September set.

How many units of VF? As many as possible of course.

I see the main issue in NAVF as an organizational one. The people with the real resources are the oldies. Giving the oldies a consistent forumla for events, a standardized budget to work with and enough advance notice is how to get them to really help out.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, I'm glad someone like Ktallguy have the guts to say the things he did. The key to a strong community is the local scenes. Why don't you focus the effort into getting VF.net working in the US? That will go a long way into making VF more popular in the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

VFnet won't be the key factor for making VF more popular. Initially you may see a spike as kids get cards and try the game out but I can't see it being the make or break for VF in NA. Ultimately the biggest stumbling block is the game itself and, for whatever reason, the bulk of people find it unappealing.

Sega won't be convinced to bring vfnet to NA by the 80 hardcore players spread out amongst the US. That's a crazy small number of people. The only thing that tends to spark any initiative in Sega is the doings of their competition. It would be great if VF5 took a page out of Namco's book and offered all of the perks of VFnet and made them available without the need of arcades investing in a network because the issue isn't just the players but the arcade owners/managers. Look how many players had to resort to buying their own machine just to have Evo/FT or resort to cajoling the owners of their local establishment. And still the number of machines (evo or FT, take your pick) is so small. Now picture having to have the same owner/manager be convinced of the game and the need to bring in cards, reader kits, network connections etc.

Local gaming scenes thrive based on the community that spawns it not on costume changes, in my opinion. I think the challenge lies where it has always has: with the players who want a thriving scene. Play, recruit, play, organize, play. these are about the only things they can do and it should be enough.

Andy's come up with some decent suggestions, not all of them applicable at the moment. I think one of the biggest things the scene at large can do to help itself out is get better organized. If a website rehaul (maybe a sister site or just a sub-site) is what it takes then anyone who is serious about VF5 being bigger than VF4 et al should jump on board and donate their time and energy into making it work. I do think what Andy is suggesting and what this site provides are markedly different...it really is all about the marketing at this point.

just some rambling observations,

GE

 

Well getting into 2006, here are some of my observations based on having FT and the card system in NYC.

1) Card systems really really encourage repeat play even if just for the novelty factor of saving your record.

2) VF.Net would be great but one person going to Japan can update costumes for you etc.

3) FT can make a decent amount of money if a group of 10+ dedicated players play once a week or more. Income is approximately $200-$300 a month split evenly with the place that you set your machine.

4) You can expect to get 1 new player or 1 old player coming back, about every 3 months or so. You get lots of onlookers and lots of people asking questions. It's slow to transition an onlooker to a dedicated player.

Personal update:

After last years Beat Tribe, I played on and off in NYC but have gotten hardcore back into VF and Aoi during the end of last year. I've moved to HK permanently and am playing VF in HK now. HK's scene is great anyone looking to play should PM me, i'll be happy to host and guide you to the two places where people play FT. At the moment most people are waiting for VF5 so competition is spread out and you need to know when to find it.

Flame Warning:

Were you expecting me to write something? I'm not sure what to say. Hahaha, Happy Chinese New Year?

 

Wow, I had no idea you fled the states!

 

he didnt. hes in nyc right now llol

maybe andy meant hes THINKING of moving

 

THE CHIGGER IS GONE!!!!

Chigger is actually moving to HK, i'm afraid. One of the controversial elements of the NYC scene will definitely be missed! Errr...or not. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Now, he's HK's problem!! amirite? j/k

We love our Chigger! Please stay, Chigger!! /versus/images/graemlins/tear.gif /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: THE CHIGGER IS GONE!!!!

Dont worry Adam, I will take care of him over here!! /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif Welcome to HK Andy /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Re: THE CHIGGER IS GONE!!!!

Long live the chigger!!!! We should start an online-petition to keep the chigger where he belongs, in NYC. IN all seriousness, you will be missed Andy. Thanks for helping my game out as well as always having a place for me to crash!

 

Re: THE CHIGGER IS GONE!!!!

adam, guess this means a going away party like we did to donald aka frenchie. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Re: THE CHIGGER IS GONE!!!!

Oh yeah! We should definitely hold one of those for The Chigger. This should involve some females in addition to VF. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Re: THE CHIGGER IS GONE!!!!

Yo, let me know when this happens!!!

 

Re: THE CHIGGER IS GONE!!!!

holy coww,, you read my mind with combining my liqour store action:
a vf gathering with a group of performing ladies (both public and private) w/ alchohol and VF...

I will be there if this happens..

meat-stino

 

Re: THE CHIGGER IS GONE!!!!

Andy is moving to HK, permanently? what the? When is the leaving party going to take place?