Not that i'm a pro or anything but................

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

The importance of studying the frames closely should never be underestimated it gives the player valuable info that the casual player misses. Both actual game play and frame study are both equally important overall and whether or not I choose to see the frames done in front of me thus telling me what I need to know based on experience or if I really do my homework behind the scenes either way a great player must understand both equally. I gained my knowledge of frames though observation and lack the ability to fully understand it unless I see it done in dojo or online play, but those who understand it without having to play it in every instance really amaze me for they have far more patience than me

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

You just completely misunderstood everything that I was saying.

If a character has a mid sabaki and can break nitaku, they're still using nitaku, and that also adds another yomi layer. For example you're in nitaku, and then you sidestep their sabaki, or you just sabaki their sabaki.

What I mean by characters like Brad or Vanessa, they just don't even have to be a part of ANY of that. Get wins without nitaku, get wins without playing the game. Vanessa just walk back and do mid kick, there's nothing going on or even cool about that IMO. That's what I'm talking about.

You can't punish it, you basically have to stay away from them and beat the whiff(like playing Tekken), or try and do something before they start. So basically you're running away from the game itself, or you're trying to prevent any kind of game to even begin. Those characters(there's others in the game too, probably Lei Fei), if they really want to beat you, they can just play like that.

All in all, there's nothing wrong with it. This game basically has many different ways people can go about playing it. Like it's not really specialized, it just has many different things. I guess that's good or bad, depending on who you talk to.

EDIT: also, what you're saying is fine and cool, you just didnt speak on what I was actually addressing imo, so i tried to clarify.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Ya'll just made me hate VF5 period.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Heh just read a few more pages so I'm being redundant but here
we go:

Don't feel to bad. Some people are good with books, some people
are good with their hands. Some learn well by listening, some
learn well by seeing, others by doing etc.

Not everyone learns the same way. The truely hardcores obviously
have both a LOT of experience AND a Lot of frame knowledge.
Some people consider this too much of a chore and work like.
It just depends on how much time and effort you want to put
into it, and how much you value winning at this game. Like
me I don't value being that good very highly. I learned as much
as I could to be competitive enough for me not to get bored. If
I feel I need to up my game because my current level of play
isn't satisfactory I'll evolve.

I think this can't be disputed:
If you have good frame knowledge it will make
advancing past the basics easier.

This is coming from someone who used to refuse to learn about
frames. Losing to simple frame traps at higher levels beat it
into me though. I got tired of winning where I was, and in order
to play the higher ups I needed to change my ways.

Simple tip I think "frame newbs" need to know is that it's not
like you have to know all the frames too all the moves. Just
the ones the ones that are fast and give you advantage(or your
opponent or have special properties imo.

You can apply "feel" from then on.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

One thing that discourages me learning frames is my play-style. I tend to use Tekken-style tactics. (whiff and counter, etc) From what it sounds like, "moral" style is a lot of keeping your guy close to the opponent and throwing out various jabs and kicks.

Is there anywhere were I can get some basic frame tactics for Lau? (simple frame "tricks" for me to try) All I have really found in his section are combos and the top 10 moves. I think it would be interesting to see if applying some of this stuff helps my game.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Pleportamee: What we're trying to explain is that frame data isn't really all that character/style specific. It's like the 14-frame elbow to punish someone using repeated low punches. Well, you can look up any 14 frame attack Lau has, and use it punish a low punch... we only quote the elbow because it's the one move that everyone has. But that's just a low punch situation. You can look up any move that you're having trouble with if someone spams it at you, and find out whether you're at advantage after you block the move... and find out how much advantage, and what attacks you can use with risking counter hit... and so on and so on. It's not stopping you from still using a "whiff and counter" strat. But, knowing close up frame things means you can still find an advantage, when the opponent isn't letting you run away (and you don't have to spend a lot of time standing next to your opponent trying different attack sequences to learn).

Slide: I did understand what you're saying. But, Vanessa's back dash is just one of many gimmicks in the game. It's particularly good, but she's still not top tier for a reason, it's not unbeatable. Nitaku isn't like some crazy holy grail of attack strategies... as many people complain, fuzzy and ETEG beat it more easily than in VF4. But, it is the "noob crusher" style if nothing else, and there's a reason people talk about it so much, and advanced defense centers around beating it. It's a really strong baseline for the high-level play.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

I understand with Fuzzy, but how does something like ETEG beat Nitaku more than before? More or less, I don't get it. Mainly because I just don't know, I only know that fuzzy is easier in 5 compared to the previous games, because I read it here.

Wanna know what also beats Nitaku now? walking backwards(meaning just avoiding chances for it to even come up for you on adv or disadv). Someone like Vanessa, need not even learn how to use step techniques. Just hold 4.

Nitaku isn't a "noob crusher" 'style', if noobs can be successful without even having to utilize or deal with it. Being successful without even having to "play" or learn the meat of the game.

This was probably the aim though, I mean that's cool by me, cause it's got something people can just jump right into and get instant gratification and stand a chance and not get slaughtered, but it's also got the depth in it too, that is, if people are playing in whichever particular way(normal VF?). I think now it's kind of like, you may know the system better than player B, but you also gotta know how to get past their gimmicks now in order to get to play the system.

Looks like Sega was trying to grab alot of new players. Shit it worked, I didn't even like VF(because I didn't know about it or understand it) until I got hyped about playing VF5. Now I like VF's system above all other fighting games I've ever played.

Right?(no, I'm seriously asking cause I'm trying to get better understanding). Somebody correct me if I'm wrong or just don't have a clue.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

qouted for empthasize /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif


SLIDE: i saw nitaku in vf5 in one of the first japanese matches i saw of the game, i was like "oh shit they have it down to that detail, i deffinetly need to get this game" theres A LOT of depth to this game and thats the reason I bother playing it, but the depth in this game is like the depth in real life, just because you've learned wing chun trapping it doesn't neccesarily mean you're gonna beat a 540, you need to work around it

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Slide: I didn't mean ETEG is also better than before. I meant that by virtue of fuzzy being stronger, and ETEG being necessary at a fewer number of total frame disadvantage situations, it is easier to beat nitaku than before.

My opinion is it's not *that* big a loss. Standard Nitaku (elbow/throw) is still really powerful, and fuzzy is the "safest" defense. Backdashing leaves you completely unable to guard for ~20 frames. It seems potent, but playing against vanessa, you just alter your "nitaku" to throw/dash-in launcher, and you're back to winning, and you actually get more damage than from the elbow. The problem with backdash is that the reward is high (you beat nitaku same as fuzzy, and avoid delay attacks/throws because you're out of range), but the risk is also generally higher than fuzzy (if you're opponent doesn't choose standard nitaku options, you're a sitting duck while you wait for the back dash animation to finish). Actually winning requires you to think on that level, not just go through the motions of spamming nitaku because frame data says it's generally good.

To sum up: <3 Yomi. You have to learn to use all your moves, and nitaku is, as I said before, little more than a good baseline for interesting move interactions. You have to think at least that high level, but it's a minimum, there's a lot more to the game beyond it.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

My only thought is 'first round never counts'.

If you lose the second round... then start to worry. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Vanessa's walking back speed, not the backdashing speed.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Honestly, the only local Vanessa player that I have to worry about in tournaments lives 3 hours away, I haven't seen him in months, and he could probably beat me with one hand tied behind his back anyway (RaybladeX is his GT, if you've ever seen him online).

Combine that with the fact that I never care about online results, and I've just never sat down and worked out efficient strategies against her. So, I'm just not the right person to ask about how to avoid that particular gimmick.