Not that i'm a pro or anything but................

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

shadowmaster is dead right. The beauty of this game is that it is so deep and each character has so many moves that you can create your own fighting style within each character. Be yourself and forget and ignore when people tell you that you are playing wrong. People will always try to tell you how to be so just ignore them.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

only when there is lag. After your opponent has blocked your 2p you;re at -5. even a 10 frame jab wont interupt a 14 frame elbow at this point and you'll be the one getting counterhit.

of course there are answers though like a sabaki/reversal, a move that goes under/over mids etc. never theless the concept of disadvantage/advantage and thus frame data stands at the core of the game system.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

This has been mentioned before, but it bears mentioning again. People who study frames don't read frames when they are playing and they shouldn't.

What I mean is frames are a way to figure out something without trial and error. At the very least eliminate trial and error. It's just a faster way of learning the game especially with a small US scene. We just don't have enough players to go around, and we can't afford to learn by trial and error all the time.

I study frames. The benefit of studying the frame data beforehand is that I don't have make wrong hypothesis in what I learn during matches, thus eliminates wasted trial and error effort. I don't see the numbers when I play just the knowledge behind the numbers.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Some people don't even use Nitaku when they play. Why's that? that's some of the best shit VF has to offer. Nitaku.

Some people just go around throwing the highest damage potential safe moves out, hoping they hit and then do combos off of them. Can't even punish the shit either, there's no discretion. That reminds me alot of what Tekken is about, not VF. If I wanna play Tekken, I'll go play Tekken. But I want to play VF.

The moment I actually started "playing VF", I started actually getting better at this game(VF5), at the sametime, I started noticing how messed up a few things are because some characters don't even have to play or be a part of the VF's core system. They can just avoid it altogether, i.e. Vanessa, Brad, etc. Characters like that don't even need to be played through nitaku. Just abuse something safe over and over again, and whiff punish and all that, it reminds me of Tekken.

Nah man, I'm not hating on VF5. It's just that, alot of people don't even have to play conventional VF, and it works just fine for them in this game. I play opponents sometimes and I'm OBVIOUSLY not playing the same game they are. I suppose this is a good and a bad thing, cause it has something for everyone right now?

But it's cool, I'm just trying to get better at VF, cause I enjoy playing VF at it's core.

I guess bottomline is, both sides(play how you want to play, or play VF. frames? or no frames?) of the discussion seem to be right in some way or another.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

thanx, i can, but dont get me wrong im not neo or anything im getting used to this game just like everyone else lmao

for whatever its worth, i learned fuzzy guard and the purpose and usefulness of sarah's FL /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif a week after playing the game and realised sarahs kara neutral flamingo before it was announced on youtube, and apparently the guy found it out before it was put on here.


this game is brilliant. and makes you feel adapted to whoever you put effort into, i think thats why the characters are so linear, to let you make the characters shine in your own way without prejudice. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Or they could be correctly realizing that hitting someone on the ground isn't always the best option. Aoi can reverse ground attacks. Any character can escape ground throws. And if you commit to pounce or ground throw, but your opponent manages to quick rise faster than you expected, then you're guaranteed to get counter hit. It's a much, much safer option in terms of risk/reward to not use ground attacks, especially at the end of a match, where you're opponent is probably struggling as hard as humanly possible to mash in a quick rise.

Slide: I don't think that ability to play in a unique style is only vanessa or brad. They tend to feel like they're "breaking the rules" by being a bit overly abare, because safe moves allow that. However, anyone with a reversal "breaks the game" system in a defensive way... knockdown + damage that's as fast to active as holding guard??? Anyone with a mid sabaki can break nitaku... anyone with a stance that ducks mids (brad, pai, and lei-fei at the least) is "breaking the rules". So, every character has something weird about them. But, the fact that nitaku sometimes doesn't work shouldn't be used as an excuse to never learn it... it's still core gameplay for a reason, and you can't use any of that other stuff to break it until you correctly understand it.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

True in your behalf but still prefer trial and error.
Since you can never call it.

@Sorias - Hitting someone on the ground is not the Japanese way of honor is it? cause as far as im concerned i never pounce an opponent assuming that they won't tech roll. yes i will safe kick you if i know you've been bounce off a wall. I don't know maybe i need to go international with mines. I use to always Gives Japanese/korean/Chinese players way too much credit like i was inferior in every game i played datin back to the early 90's in Playland arcade. Then i reach that points where i started ripping thru them so i knew i must've got better. Now that games are getting easier i just don't have the love for them like i use to. There's plenty of players up here that i haven't played that are very good but i don't have the competitive feel no more because there's to much exploitable bullshit in these user friendly games.Its like every body wants to play like 1 particular person. Its sameness all over i guess.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Me peronally- I never try to read or anaylize frame advantage. However, I do pay attention to what's going on in a match. I always try to note if I do move A, then this guy is most likely going to do move B etc. I also utilize a lot of yomi and conditioning ("training" my opponent to expect a certain move) This seems to be woking for me so far-- of course I would just consider myself to be an average player.

I think if you're winning- there's really no need to change the way you play- even if you use the crappiest moves posible. However if you are losing-then you need to learn/adapt.

I also think that if your opponent is doing the same move over and over (low punch for example) and winning- then it is YOU that needs to change your style. If your opponent is doing the same move over and over but losing- well maybe try to give that person some tips- but either way there's no reason to get pissed off.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

I would prefer trial and error too, but it takes too long for this method to work.

Basically, imho, frames are concrete data that represents the structure that make up the rules of the game. I feel that to neglect them presents a big disadvantage against those who have knowledge of frames. I actually am not a "moralist" type of player. I try fancy, unpredictable choices that are not very smart choices based on frame data. However, with my frame knowledge I know exactly what kind of situation I put myself into.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

You can prefer trial and error... but the simple fact of the matter is that, at best, you will learn exactly the same things as someone who looked at the frame data, and you will learn those things a hell of a lot slower.

What people who "refuse to study frame data" always seem to not get is that it DOES NOT dictate the way you play. Yes, it shows that if you block a low punch, an elbow will counterhit any possible attack your opponent could use. However, the elbow will still lose to a reversal, or simply guarding. Studying frame data does not require me to elbow 100% of the time... it's just way, way faster than sitting around in dojo proving to myself that the elbow will beat the 10-frame punch, but my 17-frame knee will not.

As regards ground attacks. There's no "honor" in it. Pounces will counterhit rising attacks if timed correctly, but lose to quick recovery. Soft downs will hit someone during quick recovery (but not the instant P+K+G wakeup), and okizeme attacks will beat the P+K+G instant wakeup. It's just rock/paper/scissors, same as the attack/block/throw part of the game. BUT, due to timing variations (rising attacks will sometimes hit pounces if delayed correctly, soft downs will sometimes still not hit someone doing quick rise, if they mashed fast enough), it tends to be unsafe to use ground attacks unless you know they're guaranteed (especially if you and your opponent are both extremely low on health).

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

That's not necessarily true; published frame data isn't always complete or accurate. Lots of by-the-book lau players probably think elbow-palm-kokei is disadvantage on guard.

Bottom line is published frame data is the map, the actual game engine frames are the territory. If you understand the game, you understand frames,regardless of whether you think of it in those terms.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

It's a seperate issue... you can read the wrong frames, or screw up the timing in your trial and error tests, and yeah, you'll be wrong either way.

The argument's kinda moot, cause AM2 publishes the frames... this isn't street fighter or something, where it tooks years of meticulous data collection for the players to figure that stuff out.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

what part of "published frame data isn't always complete or accurate" didn't you understand? Since AM2 publishes the frames, tell me what's the frame situation after pai PK ~ bokutai?

How the game actually is > what the paper says the game is.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

My original statement is still 100% correct... it takes longer to learn which moves are 14frames vs. 15frames by testing than by looking it up. Moves like stance changes don't have any published data, so of course you have to test it in game, that's not relevant to a discussion about whether it's worthwhile to read the existing data, though.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

I don't know how Enterbrain would have the data if they didn't get it from AM2... it's not like anyone else can pick through the code to find it.

Regardless, the distinction is more that Capcom/SNK and some of the other companies actively go out of their way to hide the frame data and let players "discover" how to play correctly. AM2 clearly doesn't have any issue letting players know what the correct way to play is initially, and then letting us jump straight to the question of "how to win?"

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

ORLY? lets take a look . . .

This is false. You will learn incorrect or incomplete things from taking published frame data at face value without testing it, not "exactly" the same things.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it takes longer to learn which moves are 14frames vs. 15frames by testing than by looking it up.</div></div>

Yeah, except for, you know, actually learning what the move LOOKS LIKE, and getting a feel for when blockstun frames end so you can punish on time, neither of which you can do on paper.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

When did the guy who bothered building his own frame testing device get so picky? You agree with me, and you know it, or you wouldn't have bothered with that.

There are some assumptions behind frame data that you seem to be complaining about, so here, I'll state one of them for you:

1. you have to run through dojo at least once. Yeah, it's great to know the properties of some arbitrary character's 6P+K, but obviously have to know what the move is in game. Btw, looking up what the move looks like in-game isn't a type of trial and error testing either (which is what we were talking about in the first place)... it's just, you know, looking something up.

How about I restate it, "those of us who aren't stupid enough to try and learn things that frame data explicitly doesn't include when reading frame data, will learn ONLY things that we could have learned through testing anyway, but we will learn them faster."

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

If I didn't start learning frames, I would not have been able to put up a better fight against Incident, Ladon or X-tian. Those guys know frames for characters that they play and characters that they dont play. It's not a good thing when somebody is telling you frame data for YOUR character and they dont even play him/her.
Frame data knowledge may hold a few people back from playing a more fluid and intuitive game though but in the right hands it can be a deadly tool.
SonofHeaven is a prime example of how a person with almost no frame data knowledge whatsoever can still put up a great fight just from instincts.
But if he was to learn frame data and apply it he would kick so much more ass.