"Competent" NAVF players

Me & the fellas hung out a bunch in the stl room at evo2k3. I imagine it was the best place to hang out for a vfer on the evenings we were lucky enough to be there (like when mutherfuckers across the hall weren't dying of alcohol poisoning).

On one of these evenings I was trying to hook up my ps2 through a vcr (no modulator or rca cables on tv) & it became apparent that the rca cord was missing some pins where it jacks into the ps2 & we couldn't get any game happening.

Imagine.

Chibita's sitting RIGHT OVER THERE and I can't make the fucking machine work. I get the bright idea to cannibalize some cables and stuff them in where the pins are missing & pray.

Nothing.

Yamagishi breaks out a penlight. Someone has a screwdriver. Everyone agrees in a couple different languages that my idea has merit. Merit in that "you fucking redneck" kind of way no doubt. Alas, this redneck finished school with something other than an electrical engineering degree so, no dice. Or vf.

However, on the evening prior I had managed to jimmy the machine to work (knife swap & vcr modulator, baby!) and on the day after things went well (IIRC Eric et al scored some cords) & I remember Eric suggesting I change my nick to MacGuyver. I was honestly flattered. I considered it at length because of this & since no one had ever suggested a nick for me in my life, save my skateboarding youth when the chief of police's son geeked on calling me Ogre.

Good times that weekend are more important to me than any fucking flame war.

I guess I had other things to say, but fuck it.

VF LOVE

 

Drop the race card...it's a sign of your own defensiveness!

 

Man...race cards are tighter than Evo cards, that's for sure.

 

If you're going to play cards you should really try and get the limited edition Level 6 Whitey card. Excellent Skill and Dexterity modifiers but there's like, only one in 10,000 produced and you have to eat a lot of that trashy gum just to find one. Alternatively I'd play the more common Level 1 Mouthy Fucktard card. Realy low modifiers but you get to play it multiple times in a single turn which increases your chances of winning or at least just pissing off your opponent.

GE

 

If you bitches saw even one paragraph of the top secret shit I be storin' in my Classified Virtua Fighter Dossier, you would shit your pants with fear.

 

I'll try to keep this short since I know it's a pain to read long posts. (I can see from the preview that I failed. Sorry).

First, apology to srider, and maybe even to shou :X ... and to anyone else I offended with the race card. Ice-9 is right. *contorts in agony*
What I was trying to say is that 1. Certain attitudes about VF seem to come together and 2. it might be a 'cultural thing' that explains that.
Shou pointed out correctly and pretty conclusively that certain knowledge has been known by NA players (i.e. white guys) and not shared, included the ARE example he hates so much. BTW, I used it as an example because it seemed neat and useful at the time, but you can substitute other useful bits of info instead of ARE, we both know they exist.

Re: witholding info, shou and I discussed this a while, and you say the same thing he does, and I've heard secondhand that imf has also said it: you can try, but people just (rudely) question and discredit the good information and there's no reward in posting it.

My feeling about that is: Post the information and walk away. Don't devote ten hours to arguing with retards on the internet, just devote 5 minutes to making the original post and see if one guy out of 50 or 100 really gets it and can apply it. Converting that one guy in a nice scene like japan's would be useless, but converting one more guy in the USA would be fantastic, since the average player has only like ... 3-5 in his area.

Shou also said he would share if someone just asked him for something specific, and his feeling is that supergolden should have reacted with 'why do you say I'm not competent' rather than 'fuck you, "incompetent" my ass!'.
I think shou was hoping he'd ask so that specific information could be shared, not so that flames and insults could spread. Originally I felt shou was going out of his way to be insulting, but he's managed to talk me into believing that he truly was just oblivious to the potential result of using the word 'incompetent'. He truly feels he's the master of separating emotion from discussions of this type, and (incorrectly) assumed everyone else could do the same. He also says the japanese will give frank rundowns of each other's skills, and they are much less uptight about it. I still dunno about that.


re: 'the magic moment when you're good' - I can buy that there will be a moment when you realize that all or almost all of the significant holes in your game are gone, and you feel like something has just clicked. I think you make a good point about people knowing theory but not being able to apply it. I might know on paper what to do in -2 or +5 or whatever, but the good players like chibita actually APPLY the theory... every day, every game. It's really the combination of correct reactions + dexterity/reflexes + putting theory fighter into daily practice that makes a good player. Or in shou's opinion, a competent one.

Ok, wrapping it up -

*Shou's gotta work on being aware of people's emotions, even if he feels they shouldn't be a factor. He has this almost icy disregard for how people might react to 'skill assessments', and then he also makes frequent tongue-in-cheek arrogant-sounding statements. The combination of those 2 things = people will conclude he's an ass and not listen to some of his very valid points. Also, a lot of this 12-13 page thread would have been avoided with another word choice. I cannot convince shou that competent just means 'having few holes'.. to him, a bare minimum for competence is having no significant holes in your game.

*Sharing information is something I love to do, and I don't really fish for credit for it. If someone argues with what I say, I am willing to argue back for hundreds of lines. So to me, the concept of not sharing information because people will argue with it ... is strange. I wish that the players who feel like they're driven out of the scene and shouldn't bother sharing info could see their way past the irritation and continue to contribute. I can accept and understand why they decide not to do it, I just wish it were different.

*Comparing the japanese to north americans should be done carefully, because there's not just a VF skill level difference, but an attitude difference towards friends, gatherings, posting, sharing information, etc etc etc.
I think the NA willingness to travel, gather socially, and share/discuss/argue things is a good thing. I think the asian (? too broad?) willingness to take constructive criticism and to truly commit to video games in a way that makes most NA players look shallow is also a good thing. I guess it's unreasonable to expect one player or a group of players to exhibit all of these qualities (I know for example that I might have reacted similarly in supergolden's shoes).

 

Considering I havn't posted here since the start, I feel the need to chime in...

Shou began talking about competent Shun players in the FT thread, in the context of Shun's drinking in relation to his overall game... When Shou said things like "play some competent Shun players before talking about this" and "No, he (Namflow) was not competent" I took it in the context of his overall Shun play... In this subject we were talking about things like lying down and drinking, running away and drinking, stuff that Namflow has talked about in his The Drunken Shun FAQ and in other places... They wern't talking about delayed launchers or ARE... They wern't talking about competence at VF in general, they were talking about competence as a Shun player...

I really had no idea where Shou came off calling my brother an incompetent player, especially considering that they didn't play against each other that much... Hell, if Nam was using ARE and delayed launchers (and all other things that are required to be competent in Shou's eyes) I'm not even sure if Shou would have noticed! Shou's assesment of competence was, at best, based on a few games, heresay and some assumptions - that is why I got pissed off and started this thread...

-Alex

 

[ QUOTE ]
Jerky said:
Oh and who can forget the lovely 3- 0wned parting gift when you played Wolf before I left. Fuck even the close Jacky vs Jacky matches I STILL WON MORE - keep on crying plz ~ ~

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok listen jerky, I think it was common knowledge my evo stick bit the dust last time. even sarahbuck complained about the punch button. I hope you went home happy after barely winning against people with a 1/2 broken stick. And don't forget to wipe the mirror after you jerk on it. For your information your record is still 47%, that's including from playing other people as well. No matter how much you talk here jerky you will never break the 50% mark with me. I don't even know why i'm bothering with you, everyone here knows what kind of player you are. Why don't you put your money where you mouth is, I challenge you to a first to 50 death match internet boardcasted, so the whole world can witness your shame of defeat. and the loser has to drop his pants over the webcam. Do you accept you fucking chicken fingers?

 

[ QUOTE ]
Namflow said:

I wonder where I got that crazy idea you were attacking me from? Maybe it was when Llany (someone who, at that time, had played me far more than you had) simply implied I was competent and asked if you agreed and you said you didn't. I'm sure if I posted somewhere saying "Shou is incompetent at VF" you'd think something of it.

Attack or no attack, even without hostile intentions, to get on here and post that another player is incompetent at the game is beat. Who are you to say who is competent and who isn't?

It's not like I'm getting on here and posting I'm one of the top players in America (unlike someone I know), all I'm saying was it's really rude to call someone incompetent at their hobby. I mean it's just a video game and I ain't saying I'm awesome at it or that I'm gonna go win me some tourneys, but I will go on the record and say I'm at the very least competent at VF, and was competent at Top Gun. Of course Kazu and Ryan were better than I was and both had winning percentages against me, but that doesn't make me incompetent at the game.

When I hear the word incompetent I think of someone who doesn't block, doesn't tech roll, and mashes all the time. When I hear the word incompetent I think of someone who just picked up the game and has no clue what they're doing. I think if you know enough about the game to get better while playing (even if you lose) then I'd call you competent.

I know our ideas of competence differ, so I'd still like some elaboration on what these "VF concepts" are that EVERY incompetent North American VF player was missing at Top Gun. I'd also like to know how you can say you have a full understanding of VF now. Like what exactly was the turning point from scrub to 1337?

Actually it sounds like you're attacking all of the American VF players with special emphasis on the Shun players. Am I the only one who thinks calling every American player incompete is a bit extreme?

The point I'm making is that since IMF beat Ryan Hart in a tournament setting that IMF was competent at the game. There's no way someone who was incompetent at VF could defeat a player like Ryan in a tourney. And just to say, I think the tourney was best 2/3 /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yes, I'd love to see IMF post and say "I was incompetent at Top Gun."

[/ QUOTE ]

As Myke had already pointed out, the word usage was poor and proficient is probably a better term. If anybody thought I was trying to insult anyone, then it was taken the wrong way. I was attempting to provide a purely analytical view from a player perspective but it's obvious that some people are rather sensitive over the issue.

Our standards of competency or profiency are different. When I think of proficient in VF, it is a player who knows how to deal with all of the general situations in the game, ie what are your best options at common advantage/disadvantage points, when can you safely backdash away, how to beat every defensive technique etc. Someone who whiffs TEs or can't see stance are not proficient to me. Most players at VFTG were whiffing TEs (99% of players still are), most people still can't see stance, the most advanced defensive technique we were doing back then was EDTEG and the fact remains we did not know how to deal with so many situations. That event was well over a year ago, I know many of us have improved which is why I pointed that out.

As for people backing me up, they have privately and all of them don't want to get involved here seeing how some people have overreacted already.

 

Shou you are so funny. Every post you try to put yourself above everyone else. Where do you get the ideas that your definition of "competent" is higher than other? Honestly you are just full of yourself. That's the bottomline.
If people don't want to back you up in public chances are they are telling you white lies trying to keep you from crying. Save yourself the embarrassment and just shut the fuck up already.

For a testimony of Shou's vf skills: everyone please check out these wonderful clips of shou in evo2k3:

http://virtuafighter.com/versuscity/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=111991&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

 

[ QUOTE ]
Konjou_Akira said:
Alright since Crew force me to post something in this thread. I will just add my two cents, well more like one cent. Shou, I think you should stick by what you feel. But, everyone that you have offended I think you should give them an apology. It's fine to stand by what you believe. But the friends that you have made through out your VF career should be price less IMO. I take VF very seriously and I strongly want to get to the top. But if I had to choose between being the best player and have no friends while I am at the top. I would rather not be at the top. I treasure all the new faces I have met since my VF career began. Knowing that I am going to meet someone new who is possibly strong is one of the things that fuels me to constantly train. What would be the point if the person most likely wouldn't want to meet me because of hoop la like this. There would be no point to go to any future events or train. Stand by what you believe, but don't lose friends over it.

And with that I am done!

[/ QUOTE ]

Rodney

You know I only jokingly talk trash with people that do it with me. We do it all of the time and have fun with it. But, you also know I just tell things how I see them as a player without any intention of insulting anyone but rather for them to see where improvements can be made instead of the sugarcoating facades so many people put up here.

 

WOW, Nice vids LOL. Shou, STFU and go practice. I'd never thought I'd see more of a pussy pounding in a Jenna Jameson vid LMFAO /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

The teapot calling the kettle black...

stfu already

 

hi jeff! here's a suggestion: drop your ownership of vfdc, BITCH. the state it's in now is a sign of your supremely pathetic idiocy.

the ONLY reason ANYONE has a smidgen of memory and/or knoweldge of you (outside of .sg) is because you pay for vfdc.

and what do we get? several outright catastrophic failures and four years+ on a server that performs EVERY DAY like a backwater link with a britney spears nipple shot being violently and bloodily Farked up the ass. it is pathetic and disgraceful. get off your fucking high horse and relinquish control to the only man who, in the last five years, has actually allowed anything to happen to vfdc as we all know it (and who saved the entire forum database during the time you fucking forgot to pay for the service): myke.

clueless retard owners of establishments should not stay in power. i say you should get the fuck out now. i'm sick of vfdc being constantly broken.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shou said:
As Myke had already pointed out, the word usage was poor and proficient is probably a better term.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off competent was a little bit worse than a poor choice - it was wrong and offensive...

Competent (adj): Adequate for the purpose.

You said was that Namflow was not "adequate for the purpose" of playing Virtua Fighter... You can't try to say people are overreacting or imply that they are too sensitive because they took offense to this... No matter how you phrase it or try to justify it, calling someone incompetent is insulting... Don't bullshit me about how you "tell it like it is" and "don't sugar coat stuff." or that we are intrepreting this in the wrong way... You wouldn't use language this strong only for constructive criticism: the fact that it would even slip reflects on you and how you deal with / think about other people...

[ QUOTE ]
Shou said:
If anybody thought I was trying to insult anyone, then it was taken the wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find myself shaking my head that you won't just admit you were wrong... Instead of "I realize I should have phrased what I wanted to say differently" you are saying something like "SHOU HAS SPOKEN and you took it the wrong way, your fault"...

Proficient (adj): Having or marked by an advanced degree of competence...

Ok, so it is a bit more difficult to be proficient than competent... This is still a highly subjective term... We can debate back and forth, but the only -real- way to measure proficiency is by success... Take Shaq for instance... He may not be able to do fast cross over moves (ARE), fade away jumper shots (delayed launchers) or blaze past defenders to score a bucket (defeating advanced defensive techniques)... Does that mean he isn't a proficient basketball player? HAH... He may not be the most technical basketball player, but he surely is one of the most effective and successful basketball players there is... Not that Namflow is the Shaq of VF, but whatever he lacked technically at that time he made up for...

Even if you have mastered all of these techniques, you can be beaten by someone who doesn't use them... You can only truly measure competency and proficiency by how successful one is at doing whatever it is they are doing - end of story...

I also thought it was cute how you jumped in a conversation about Shun and drinking points... You said there were no competent home grown shuns (and insulted all of them in the process)... Then go on to talk about your matches with m. shun's 10th dan shun from japan and how drinks work into his game... when people implied Namflow was competent, your story changes from talking about drinking to being about complete and utter mastery of all vf offensive and defensive techniques...

[ QUOTE ]
Shou said:
As for people backing me up, they have privately and all of them don't want to get involved here seeing how some people have overreacted already.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes this thread so much fun is you keep digging yourself deeper and deeper... Namflow called you out on it - you offered IMF & Cappo to post defending your point of view, he said "bring it on"! When he called you out on talking out of your ass you try to save face by blaming him and others for "overreacting"...

I've got to know though why havn't you responded to me since the beginning of the thread? I felt like I made some pretty good points you conviently have chosen not to respond to... Have no argument against what I'm saying? Dare you respond to this one? Or are you going to be quiet just like IMF & Cappo...

-Alex

 

supergolden

I can use the dictionary too.

o·pin·ion
A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert

You need to stop confusing someone's opinion with fact. There is no true or false.

You can say it's my opinion that your brother did well at VFTG because almost no one knew how to deal with Shun.

You can say it's my opinion that it's funny you keep replying for your brother.

But, you can say it's fact that the last time we played, you couldn't even win 1 match against me. /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

#1 SIGN THAT YOU PLAY TOO MUCH VF.....


[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so it is a bit more difficult to be proficient than competent... This is still a highly subjective term... We can debate back and forth, but the only -real- way to measure proficiency is by success... Take Shaq for instance... He may not be able to do fast cross over moves (ARE), fade away jumper shots (delayed launchers) or blaze past defenders to score a bucket (defeating advanced defensive techniques)... Does that mean he isn't a proficient basketball player? HAH... He may not be the most technical basketball player, but he surely is one of the most effective and successful basketball players there is... Not that Namflow is the Shaq of VF, but whatever he lacked technically at that time he made up for...

[/ QUOTE ]

... usuage of vf in an analogy with real life. GO ALEX!

 

[ QUOTE ]
I can use the dictionary too.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you should have in your first post then. Saved yourself all the backpedalling and useless posturing.

but anyway, I think your time would be better served editing or deleting his post. That way you wouldn't have to ignore valid points before attacking his win record against yourself.

GE
<font color="green"> say - is it just my imagination or is it awfully boring in here?</font>

 

[ QUOTE ]
GodEater said:

[ QUOTE ]
I can use the dictionary too.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you should have in your first post then. Saved yourself all the backpedalling and useless posturing.

but anyway, I think your time would be better served editing or deleting his post. That way you wouldn't have to ignore valid points before attacking his win record against yourself.

GE
<font color="green"> say - is it just my imagination or is it awfully boring in here?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]


Hahahaha good one GE

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shou said:

supergolden

I can use the dictionary too.

o·pin·ion
A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert


[/ QUOTE ]
Despite what dictionary.com says anyone can have an opinion, not just an expert... The definition you chose was for a "medicial opinion", which we clearly arn't dealing with here...

[ QUOTE ]
You need to stop confusing someone's opinion with fact. There is no true or false.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's some facts for you: if you call someone else incompetent there is a fair chance they are going to get upset... I hope you have learned that by now... It might save you a relationship sometime down the road!

[ QUOTE ]

You can say it's my opinion that your brother did well at VFTG because almost no one knew how to deal with Shun.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah it is really easy to discount someone's skill by saying something like "Oh I didn't know how to deal with that character"... People's beliefs can be false, even if they mask them as opinions...

[ QUOTE ]
You can say it's my opinion that it's funny you keep replying for your brother.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? We are two close people, and if someone disses him why should I not say something? Why do you think this is funny? It makes sense to me...

[ QUOTE ]
But, you can say it's fact that the last time we played, you couldn't even win 1 match against me. /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like how you didn't respond to any points I made in my post and instead just change the subject.... Well I'm not going to argue that I did well against you last time we met, because I didn't... I like how you argue - you ignore points I make and just bring up irrelevant facts about something else... You are saying "look I can say something that is true!" well it doesn't help your case unless it is dealing with the issue at hand... You had nothing to say against the points I made so you come up with "I beat you up last time hahaha win record 100%!!!!!!!!" Is that what you do when you are getting shouwned?

-Alex