Version B discussion and wishlists

version b wish list:

goh
1) add + as a new low throw (40pts) - he's got so many crumbles but a bad selection of low throws.
2) change inashi to + - why is this a two command inashi (three if you count +)? is it that good (i.e. that much better than wolf's)? ive never used it in a real game.
3) disadvantage reduced to -8 on guard - goh lost the + follow up so now it's less reward. i think it's fair to make it less risk too (but still tc).
4) 180+ - what's the point of this throw? easier execution than 270? that's silly. maybe bump down damage to 50, throw in a sober point, and give a chance at a ground punch (for 62 overall).

too unbalancing?

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

My thoughts on Goh on your wish list:

1) Yeah I think a new low throw would make A1 more of a threat without making it too powerful.

2) Wolf's LPC is definitely better than Goh's in that there is lower risk, but Goh's may have a slightly higher damage potential. You have to be sharp with Goh's, however, since the timing you connect it with will affect what combos are possible.

3) -10 is not bad...it won't make much of a difference.

4) This is so that if you mess up the 270 motion for whatever reason, chances are you'll still get the 180 motion.

And my wish list:

5) A1 also takes 15 frames to execute.

6) I did want a low throw after +, and it seems like that'll happen.

7) Make the throw part of the Basara into a guessing game. So the opponent can escape with + or +. In turn, bump up the damage from 35 points to...say, 70 points? Too much? 50 points then. This'll make Goh an interesting and potentially scary character.

8) BT to be +10 on any counter hit and thus low throwable.

9) + to be -7 on block. It's slow enough, why not.

In truth, I think FTA Goh is already just right--not too strong, not too weak. But I think the above will make him easier to play.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

Basara does 65damage now both options on normalhit. I don't think any Goh would want it to be 50% chance of escape for 15 more damage. Make it semicircular like the SpoD instead (god knows his Oki needs it) or bump up the damage period to 70-73.

He should've gotten more lowthrow options ages ago. Only one is garanteed damage and that' s just poor for a throwbased character with many forcecrouchmoves.

There's alot to say about the man in the hood but if you compare Brads update for FT with Goh's I still think Goh got pretty much shafted and alot of his problems as a character hasn't been properly / enough delt with.

/KiwE

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

i think goh has always been decent even in evo and i have these reasons.

1) both his major combo launchers are only -10. no guaranteed move, and ETEG is effective. his biggest air launcher is ----- SAFE.

2) he is safe as hell. goh can continue to nitaku off failed attacks ---- take his b,f+k or df+p+k which both still earns +2 off normal hit. that's perfect nitaku.

3) he has rock solid defensive measures. he can still overtake your attacks at disadvantage.

4) his df+p is the best elbow in the game imo. because unlike jacky's, it is -4 rather than -6 and it is just as long and can be activated at crouch too. and it gets shoulder or side trip setups. it just purley owns.

5) his b,df+p is one of the best true low attacks in the game, because it is actually safe and still gives him setup. this is very rare in VF.

7) b+p gets good advantage off any hit, is long and safe. if this gets MC, then the opp is in danger to alot of things, they can nolonger eteg to escape a guarenteed low throw, and their next fear is getting a knockdown SK or hit throw elbowin their face

6) even tho i think his throw game is way overrated, it is still good. the reason why wolf's is so strong is because of his throw window proporties on his forward directions. goh gets normal throw proporties and less reward. most of the time you are still trying to gamble a df+p off throws.

but it's still better than most character's

and the list goes on which i cant be assed to get into.

but those are some of my reasons.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

Yeah, 15 extra points is not enough reward. I think either 70 points straight-up, or perhaps 50 points and Goh can then recover quickly enough to either go for a ground throw/attack.

To me, Goh had two weaknesses in Evo: fast and long range attack, and a big attack to punish failed dodges. With and Basara, these two weaknesses have been addressed in FT.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

vf4akira - i just bought the orange book two weeks ago. boo.

i think putting a1 at 15 would be a bit too good, but then again, what's 1 measely frame? hehe.

i also agree with -7 on b,f p+k . it only sabaki's knees, and it's slow as hell. man, you have to have incredible yomi to predict a knee. maybe make it also sabaki something else? elbows maybe? im grasping here.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

I might be a lil late replyin on this but i havent read the boards recently....

1st my wish list for goh ver. B:

reversals(Hi n Mid only is good enough)
def. another low throw direction
make the Basara easier...jus the third part /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gifmaybe F/B+(Y does akira get the easier spod? Fuk that!)

w the reversals he would be the almost perfectly tweaked(again y does Akira n Pai get reversals? /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif)

2nd I jus got alot of games in w some mean veterans in shinjuku for the past two days...If you all think that Goh is perfectly ok...try playing with some of the hi level veterans in Shinjuku....see if you can pull out and test out your BS theories..Im not being cocky here jus being realistic....I played Goh as my main for almost all my VF career(Im not that good)...and It is so hard to pull out ur setups on real hi level play...maybe on westerners maybe.... The veterans even told me that Goh is one of the weakest still.... So think again....but still this doesnt stop me from playin goh as my main...I will still represent him always!....I have no complaints but I can still only wish that AM2 will keep on tweakin him for the better....

Aite too tired to comment more...

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

So now you know what it's like playing against good people...

Also, those changes that you posted won't really make Goh stronger.

Reversals are rarely useful, another throw direction still won't give him guaranteed dmg, and even if you make basara easier to do, the opportunities to hit it still won't present itself too often....

Glad to see you stick with Goh though, I personally think the idea that a certain character is weak is sort of pointless to talk about. Since ultimately it's up to the player, and it sucks the Goh players lost one of their leaders to the Jacky gang.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

My turn for Goh wishlist.

NEW LOW THROW
Speed up his + floater. I'm thinking up to 19-20 frames or reanimate it with better ducking properties.
Give him his old sidekick back

But none of the earlier responses asked why Goh's moves and throws got nerfed in FT?!?

Knee on counter gives small window for followup hits. /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Low punch-cut + also given less frames for followup. /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Shoulder ram + staggered opponent can't be thrown. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Sidekick is now shorter range and harder to add followup hits off successful hit. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Light pounce is now not guaranteed after + and HCF+ /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Ground throw attempt is now easier to avoid after+ /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif
No light pounce after 270+ /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

In my best Shang impersonation. WHY SEGA WHY? I'm not bitter but I would really like to know why they changed him so much. If it weren't for his new sexy soccer kick , I think he would definetly be worse than his Evo counterpart.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

[ QUOTE ]
Shoulder ram + staggered opponent can't be thrown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? What do you mean by this? What keeps you from dashing forward and threathening with a throw / attack game as always? Is the pushback further or something?

Here's something that would make Goh interesting and unique; counterthrows.
Every time Goh escapes a throw he performs a counter throw - maybe 10-15 dmg only so nothing (too) overpowered. Judoka power.

/KiwE

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

On that note, I always thought that for Wolf's KS, the first 20 points (the arm break) should be guarunteed, even if you escape. So he gets a tiny bit of guarunteed damge in +8 situations. You hear me AM2?

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

but the whole idea is that once the arm snaps, the throw is locked. it would be impossible for wolf to snap your arms, and then you somehow get out of it.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

For your suggested + - You'll get a launcher that's not-throw counterable and relatively fast (same speed as soccer kick). And you want it to duck high attacks? Sounds abusable.

Low punch-cut bdfP+K also given less frames for followup - This is because Goh now has Basara, which is high damage and guaranteed.

Shoulder ram DfP+K staggered opponent can't be thrown. - Has this changed from Evo?

Sidekick dfK is now shorter range and harder to add followup hits off successful hit. - I actually find the new sidekick better...I'm not sure why though.

Light pounce is now not guaranteed after dfP+G and HCFP+G - Wasn't guaranteed in Evo either.

Ground throw attempt is now easier to avoid afterdfdfP+G - This feels true.

No light pounce after 270fP+G - Never was...

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shoulder ram + staggered opponent can't be thrown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? What do you mean by this? What keeps you from dashing forward and threathening with a throw / attack game as always? Is the pushback further or something?

Here's something that would make Goh interesting and unique; counterthrows.
Every time Goh escapes a throw he performs a counter throw - maybe 10-15 dmg only so nothing (too) overpowered. Judoka power.

/KiwE

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, actually I shouldn't bitch about the shrm much. It produces a bigger stagger now. In Evo, after stagger I could dash up close in time for throw/attack game better. In FT, If I instantly dash and try to throw, it whiffs because they're still in stagger. I now mostly just add standing after shrm hit. One has to recover really well to avoid the kick followup.

I thought about counterthrows for Goh too but honestly I don't think its a good idea. It would give him too much advantage for DTEG and ETEG

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

In a similar vein, I really think am2 should make Jeffry's splash mountain and front backbreaker result in paralysis...ie you get unlimited asspounces until the round end and then in the next round (provided there is one) Lion or whomever begins the round in a wheelchair, rigged up with a tube that he can blow into for locomotion just like that guy who was in Villiage of the Damned.

Great flick by the way.

Anyway. The new Hori's would need to be like airplanes after this like how when you hit abunch of turbulence and the plane decompresses and the oxygen masks pop down except it wouldn't be a mask it would be a tube like the one that really smart cripples got.

That dude's ugly as shit, and I don't just say that cause ain't no way he could beat me up.

And something you didn't think of from all of this. VF could start to attract more women since women, especially ones who did enough fucking to make a baby, are really good at controlled breathing from the lemasse training or however they spell it. That and orgasms.

+ "ohgodohgodohgod"
270+ "whwhwhwhwhwhwh"

Make your girl come.

Play Jeff.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

10-15 damage or so then but only the last TE input actually gets to be the counterthrow instead of every TE input (hence making it more of a tactical choice)? All in all I would like this to happen - just to see the different counterthrow animations me thinks lol.

/KiwE.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

[ QUOTE ]
For your suggested + - You'll get a launcher that's not-throw counterable and relatively fast (same speed as soccer kick). And you want it to duck high attacks? Sounds abusable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would make the floater throw counterable on block if I knew I had a better chance of landing it. But in afterthought its probablty best the way it is. But man, is it SLOW. At least in Evo, he had times when your sure it would hit thanks to counter knee and LPC. Now his chances to get a combo are really bad.

[ QUOTE ]
Low punch-cut bdfP+K also given less frames for followup - This is because Goh now has Basara, which is high damage and guaranteed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Smallest frame advantage for LPC is now 20 frames. Basara's first hit is 20 frames. Basara has short range, I'm not sure if it hits if buffered in time after Goh shoves the lp. It probably does but I haven't tried it yet./versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif If so, I will implement it in my game for sure.

[ QUOTE ]
Light pounce is now not guaranteed after dfP+G and HCFP+G - Wasn't guaranteed in Evo either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pounce after Jeff's splash mountain and Lau's + isnt guaranteed either but hard to avoid without proper recovery. Those particular throws of Goh's almost always guaranteed a pounce afterward in Evo, now in FT the pounce is more easily escapable, unlike Jeff's and Lau's throws which kept their properties. I think the only throw that pounce surely hits is + which was his old throw. Of course you can light pounce + but I mostly go for ground throw attempt.

[ QUOTE ]
Ground throw attempt is now easier to avoid afterdfdfP+G - This feels true.

[/ QUOTE ] Which really hurts his throw game in my eyes. + does more damage than + initially. His strongest throws commands inputs were 70pts, 65 and potential 70. Nerfing the slam throw now makes 40 + pounce dmg. /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
No light pounce after 270fP+G - Never was...

[/ QUOTE ] You could but it was easy to avoid. Now there's no chance at all.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

[ QUOTE ]
but the whole idea is that once the arm snaps, the throw is locked. it would be impossible for wolf to snap your arms, and then you somehow get out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also impossible for you to use your arms or legs after Aoi breaks thWAIT NO ITS NOT BECAUSE ITS A GODDAMN VIDEOGAME

game balance+interesting new ideas >>> being confined by the laws of reality

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

Shag, a couple of points to note.

I think you've definitely spent alot of time with Goh to have noticed these things. Still, there are some things that you have missed which may change the way you think about the changes.

+, being a slow mid launcher, is best used after a back dash after small disadvantage (as one of its many uses). For opponents who like to elbow in small advantage situations, this move will always launch when executed correctly. It's mid, uncounterable, and it's animation can beat low punch attempts in the right stance even when Goh is disadvantaged. It can even be used to launch EDTEG. For this reason, there really shouldn't be any complaints about this move. The only thing I can see is that the timing for hitting EDTEG opponent is rather hard, but it is uncounterable. Unlike moves such as yoho, even if you get it blocked, you are fine.

on counter hit, you get + or low throw attempt for free. If you can read stance, you can still get the or + trip plus ground punch or ground throw for effectively 70+ dmg conservatively if you just go for ground punch. Also, compared to +, + is much more risky, although it is faster. It doesn't evade as well as +, and it is throwable on block. Just something to keep in mind.

Low punch sabaki, like what Ice-9 said, gets you basara for free under the right timing. So it's definitely stronger. Given that you can do basara.

About the throws, ground attack was never guaranteed as long as the opponent knows where to roll. It would seem like it's guaranteed most likely because the people you played against before didn't know which way to roll. With regard to +, because of the animation, if you can throw the opponent up to a wall, you can combo off the wall (as seen in one of the recent goh clips). In this sense, you might want to rethink the times where you do the throw. The strength of it is just changed, but it is definitely not nerfed.

+, I don't know much about this one, but I didn't hear anything about it being weaker, I don't know about the combo potential either, so no comments on this one.

+, you could always throw even in Evo. The only time when you couldn't run up and throw, is if your opponent do not struggle. In this case, you can run up and launch with + since you have +30. For people who struggle slow, is free, or you can throw. For people who struggle the fastest, you have +2. You can definitely throw unless your opponent is slow at struggling. In this sense, not much has been changed so the move is not nerfed.

 

Re: Final Tuned System Changes and Version Updates (updated 12/02/2004

Srider gave excellent advice, one thing I would add is that is also a good choice after +. If the opponent doesn't struggle hard enough, it will hit for crumple which you can combo. High damage, low risk!