Taking out with Takedown

All of these are from OS
defensive step /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
anything that goes into intruder step /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif MC /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif before hit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif before hit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif MC /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif hit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

Those are all the ways I know of how to get into the take down. I won't say that I'm obsessed with it but its just plain fun. Alright there is the mix-up of what you can do.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

They can all be countered by a simple /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif , /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
The great thing is not everyone is able to get out of it.

Ok firstly, the reason I love this move, demoralization. I mean if you get hit by this you automatically get frustrated with, why didn't I avoid it? People also hate it more if they get hit by it twice.
Secondly, the move can ring out. Be it small but it can surprise opponent's with a sidestep into the take down and ring out or keep them blocking at the edge and then they are out.
Thirdly, it just looks cool. I mean when you dodge Akira's string of linear attacks and you see Vanessa get his back and then *crack*, shivers go down my spine.

So how to make use of the take down? Know where you are in the ring, if there is no wall watch to make sure you aren't going to be on the victim's left, because you usually, I need this confirmed, get off to that side. It will usually help you get the opponent near a wall or at least force them to be more aware of your actions.
When you get the take down, what should I do?
Assuming the opponent knows how to use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to protect themselves the best idea is usually to start off with a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif and then hit them with the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Why short change damage early? Because if you cheap out on damage first you can usually hit them with a bit more damage after. I tend to keep my hits with the take down, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif . Obviously if someone has never been hit by this you can go for the best damage move /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. I haven't checked the damage on a MC but I know the max damage is 70 pts normal hit. The best is with the throw take down /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif 73.

So why do I like to use this attack? The mind games is the answer a pro would give, since I'm not one and even asking for help on how to use Vanessa, mostly DS, I like to say its for fun. So why listen to me? Why did I list all this info? I think its a possible expansion for Vanessa's abilities in OS and its a fun thing to do on friends. I hope this was somewhat useful.

 

I've heard that the opponent can only input one form of defense during the Takedown for each of the three opportunities for damage during the mount.

Is this true? Because if it is, then the opponent has 1/3 chances of escaping for each of those three opportunities of damage for Vanessa, which should technically work out in her favor.

I just wanted to add, for the uninformed, that people can grab Vanessa out of her Takedown attempts. And that the only escapable Takedown is the one from Defensive Move.

 

Yes its true.

 

How on Earth did you forget /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif in that lineup of moves that go to Takedown?

Apart from that, note the exceptional range on the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(before hit)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif cancel, that thing goes about a third of the ring, further in fact than /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

 

I thought he "forgot" + on purpose, for the reason Vortigar mentions, that is + being far superior. Although, to the defense of the move, i think it goes under highs during the initial execution, just like the sidestep lancer for example.

I have a question that has been bugging me since VF4evo: CH + is listed as a lancer - but is it really one? I don't think it can be ducked (the training dummy can't) and i can't test if it can be beaten with a regular throw, but i doubt it.

Is it really a HCT or should it be noted as HT?

 

I think Vanessas takedowns that are listed as catch throws cant be escaped. Simple as that.

 

No, wait, Manjimaru, are you sure?

I was under the impression that every catch throw can be interrupted with a regular throw. Interrupted, not escaped. OK, i suppose it's hard to do with, for example Goh's catch throw because it's fast.

But i know for a fact that vanessa's lancers are slower and can be interrupted with a throw - at least in VF4evo it's happened to me *lots* of times. Are you saying they changed the properties of catch throws in VF5?

 

Hmm, it's listed as a Catch Throw, that's indeed a tad odd.

I also think its a proper Hit Throw as in:
on /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(MC): input /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif for guaranteed effects.

I think you can assume it's a Hit Throw just like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Need to check and be sure before tossing up edits for the movelist though.

 

Yeah, that's what i'm talking about, i was actually thinking of suggesting it the "Ver.C movelist changes thread" created by Myke but i can't test it on my own (you can't set the training dummy to counterhit AND retaliate with throw) that's why i am asking.

That said, i'm 98% positive it's a hit throw because it's never happened to me AND i've never seen it getting interrupted in any video either.

Hmmm, now that i checked it out, in the VF4evo movelist Counter Strike -> Crimson Lancer is mentioned as a Hit Throw.

I think we should wait for a while and if no one suggests the contrary i'll post it in Myke's thread...

 

yes, I can confirm they are hit throws and use them all the time. Counter strike is pretty awesome indeed. Being 16f and stagger crouch blocking opponent.

 

Yes, you can override catch throws with normal throw, but you cannot escape the catch throw itself. Bit annoying semantics, but..

On the other hand, I have no idea whether its possible to beat Vanessas takedowns with normal throw after listed moves or not, due to advantage?

 

Yes it is - to confirm for yourself go to dojo mode and, have the training dummy guard and retaliate with a throw (option #4)

Now do + .

Or + .

The lancer will be interrupted and vanessa will get thrown, even if the punch is on positive frames on block.

That's standar behaviour with a catch throw. And since no blowback punch gives more than +6 on hit or counter hit, i suppose all crimson lancers have 6 frames to be interrupted (throws come out in 12 frames so 12 - 6 = 6) even on hit. That much we know.

But really, my question was "is counter strike -> crimson lancer a HCT or a HIT?" It's weird because it's noted as a crimson lancer but it doesn't come after a blow back AND it was noted a hit throw in previous VF versions. J6Commander confirms, but i'd still like to wait for further feedback before bringing this to Myke's attention...

 

One of the players I play with throws me out of Takedown on reaction...a small tip to those who plays characters with low throws: Vanessa's evade attack takedown (evade /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif) is tech crouching during it's animation, meaning you can low throw it on reaction if someone is using it offensively.

 

oh!

OH!

Wait does that work for wolf's evade throw too? Is that why i keep trying to do + to interrupt him and it never works?!??

 

Yes.

 

Wow. Thanks, that was a really nice tip.

Let's get back to vanessa, how about her + lancer, that tech crouches too, right? If the opponent were to interrupt her, he could try to low throw her during the initial execution frames OR throw her during the later execution frames?

 

Yeah its really just something that you do when they aren't aware or whats going to happen. BTW yes I didn't include /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif on purpose. wow one day and all this pops up, cool.
I'm sorry I want to reply on something but I don't have a high enough knowledge of VF system to safely say one thing or another will be correct.

 

Just a heads up on the correct way to escape Vanessa's attacks when she gets the mount on you. To escape her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif attack, you need to press and HOLD in /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, for the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, again, you need to press and hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. For the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, you need to press and hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, and for the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif you need to TAP /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif (mashing it will work fine, and is actually the best method ).

You actually CAN throw escape Vanessa's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (evade attack). Even though it is considered a catch throw (it has special properties), you will get a throw escape animation if you try a normal throw very late in it's animation (right before it connects). My friend's main character is Vanessa; and I often accidentally get a throw escape when I'm trying to override this move with a normal throw. I can 100% confirm this, since it happens often enough, and I bitch about it every time (my normal throw attempt should override his catch throw move, based on the rules of the game!). I think Van recovers side turned after the throw escape, but I'll have to confirm that next time we play. The direction you need to press to throw escape this may not matter; as long as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is pressed within the very small window. I believe I've throw escaped these when going for giant swings with Wolf on more than one occasion (so pretty sure /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif will work here).

 

The only things is if you hold down the buttons to protect yourself the opponent can see what you are guarding and attack correctly. just something I wanted to add

 

well, if he's actually looking over at your hands, look over at his to see what he is going to press. Or, just give him a slap upside his head.