Kokei frame stats

Did some testing on the frame stats of moves that cancel into kokei, comparing kokei P, K, 4P, and 6P+K after guard, hit, or CH (where possible) against a variety of counterattacks. This is pretty basic stuff, ie will the move from kokei beat, trade with, or get beaten by the counterattack.

I don't really feel like posting up tables of all the comparisons at the moment, but these are the resulting frame statistics:

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif : -5 grd, +3 hit
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif : -4 grd, +2 hit, +4 CH
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif : 0 grd, +3 hit, +10 CH
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif OR /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif : 0 grd, +5 hit
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif : +3 grd, +6 hit

If you've got counterexamples for any of these stats, i'd like to hear about it.

 

On the movelist for Lau, pk is listed as -1 on hit. Does this change with the Kokei shift?

 

U meant /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif?

Nice work by the way.

 

Yeah, sorry, meant 33pp, fixed it.

Yeah, these are all pretty much different from non-kokei stats. Seems like PK punishment is less useless than you might otherwise think, kinda like pai / bokutai

 

My problem with kokei is that good players dodge when they see it and I am not good enough at punishing/causing failed evades. Also the best Kokei move to punish failed evades is the hit-throw and I feel that the timing on that is spotty online. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

 

Nice work KoD

 

Mix in cancel to 0-frame throw? If their answer is to DM attack, most of those are punishable too. Still a mixup in theory, I guess.

 

Cancel throw, or cancel mid/full circular etc.

 

Would a delayed attack work? I'm still learning with Lau but here's a few tricks I like to throw out there: Kokei-> double tap forward to make Lau look like he's going to attack-> (opp fail evades) -> attack!
Also 4P is pretty fast, you can just throw that out there just to see their reaction and if they evade it's like them evading a standing P so you could stay on the offensive if you like/ evade/ throw/ or just continue with canned followup P's. The last P from that string can be delayed for a long time too so you can play head games with that too.

Just a little something else to mix things up with.

 

Good point. In fact if you apply the "frame advantage after escape formula" you'll see that if you do Kokei 4P after PK(hit) and opponent evades it will result in a +1 situation for opponent at worst.
The same scenario with 4+P+K,P (hit) or 33PP(Hit) will result in Lau still having advantage even after the opponent escaped Kokei 4P.