Character Moves Project

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by akai, Apr 9, 2009.

Page 1 of 4
  1. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Work in Progress (Previously called System Notes) - Wiki Version

    Character Moves Project
    Akira - Wiki or Forum
    Aoi - Wiki or Forum
    Blaze - Wiki or Forum
    Brad - Wiki or Forum
    Eileen - Wiki or Forum
    Goh - Wiki or Forum
    Jacky - Wiki or Forum
    Jeffry - Wiki or Forum
    Kage - Wiki or Forum
    Lau - Wiki or Forum
    Lei - Wiki or Forum
    Lion - Wiki or Forum
    Pai - Wiki or Forum
    Sarah - Wiki or Forum
    Shun - Wiki or Forum
    Vanessa - Wiki or Forum
    Wolf - Wiki or Forum

    The Character Moves Project is to provide an organized and intuitive way to view and discuss the game system.

    3 main parts to the project:
    1) The Wiki Links
    2) The Forum Links
    3) Images

    This will be a long term project with updates made periodically. Feedback would be very much welcome.

     
    akai, Apr 9, 2009
    #1
  2. Plague

    Plague Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    plague-cwa
    XBL:
    HowBoutSmPLAGUE
    Thanks for this and information like it. Good to see VF talk going on.
     
    Plague, Apr 9, 2009
    #2
  3. Oioron

    Oioron Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    If you need help with continuing the project, let me know. I like doing stuff like this.

    Maybe not for vanilla, but for VF5:R for sure.
     
    Oioron, Apr 9, 2009
    #3
  4. Gernburgs

    Gernburgs Well-Known Member

    I would really love to figure out if there is some high-level equation SEGA/AM2 uses to estimate, on paper, how powerful a given character will be. Maybe this is something they do during part of the design phase to see if they in the ball-park of the balance they are hoping to achieve.

    For example:

    When they wanted to add El-Blaze and Eileen there must be a way of calculating what they will need to even be close to a viable character...

    So the developers would assign a number value to each aspect of the characters moves/animations/frames and find a way to sum them, in aggregate, to estimate character power.

    10 frame jab might be 10 points
    11 frame jab 8
    12 frame jab 6.5

    Then number of throw directions and average throw damage would get some arbitrary but relative value like 26 (for Blaze... Maybe Eileen comes out to 17.5, whatever, just the idea I'm getting at.)

    So, as they go through and assign a point value to the power and usefulness of each attack/throw, until they have found something they know will have fairly good balance, at least on paper, then they tweak it from there...

    It'd be cool if we could come up with some rough estimate of how they figure these things out on a high level. I think if we could find the correct point values for the given moves, we would have a cool way to estimate character power and potential (on paper obviously...)
     
    Gernburgs, Apr 9, 2009
    #4
  5. Plague

    Plague Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    plague-cwa
    XBL:
    HowBoutSmPLAGUE
    That's a pretty brilliant deduction, man. I wouldn't be surprised if that method was used.
     
    Plague, Apr 9, 2009
    #5
  6. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    The project was actually planned for VF5:R, but who knows what is going to happen with that game.

    For now what would be most helpful and appreciative, is making sure the information is factual and easy to understand. I hope to have the first big update to this thread by Sunday evening or Monday morning.

    With hindsight, it would have saved me a lot of time if I had written the notes electronically and not by hand -_-;; .
     
    akai, Apr 9, 2009
    #6
  7. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    Thank you akai, very interesting! BTW what does the "other" column stand for? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif
     
    erdraug, Apr 10, 2009
    #7
  8. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Anything that is not a strike and not a throw. For example, reversals, stances, and movement.
     
    akai, Apr 10, 2009
    #8
  9. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    Oooooooh! Wait shouldn't Lau have his kokei stance then? And sarah her shuffle in addition to her regular flamingo?
     
    erdraug, Apr 10, 2009
    #9
  10. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    To my knowledge, the only way Sarah and Lau can get into their stances is after attacking with a strike of some sort (thus, it is listed as a striking attack). They have no command input that immediately puts them into the stances directly from the default state.
     
    akai, Apr 10, 2009
    #10
  11. Combolammas

    Combolammas Sheep Content Manager Goh

    Lau has P+K~b
     
    Combolammas, Apr 10, 2009
    #11
  12. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    Oh! Now i understand how that works, it has to be the first command /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif This is probably why OS vanessa's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif to intruder step doesn't count either, right?
     
    erdraug, Apr 10, 2009
    #12
  13. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif input to kokei is an option after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and not in the default situation; thus, it is not included in the "other unique" column.

    Correct, that was how the chart is organized and set things up for the future updates. Hopefully it makes more sense later on.
     
    akai, Apr 10, 2009
    #13
  14. Combolammas

    Combolammas Sheep Content Manager Goh

    Oh yeah, I thought all this time that 1 for Sarah was b+K+G~G to Flamingo but now I finally realized it was Moonsault.. Forgot the move completely.

    I hope you don't mind me saying but I would take into account stuff like Sarah, Lau and Vane canceling their attacks before impact to stance because it practically is a neutral -> stance command.
     
    Combolammas, Apr 10, 2009
    #14
  15. Oioron

    Oioron Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    Here's my understanding of how you counted and classified moves:

    I'm looking at Akira right now. He has 10 normal high attacks:
    1)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, 2)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, 3)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, 4)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, 5)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, 6)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, 7)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, 8)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, 9)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, and 10)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

    You classified 4 moves and (3 moves with unique input options).
    /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif are basically the same move. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif counts as the second, and then /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. My guess is that you lumped /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif together in your count. Leaving us with the 4 moves referred to on your chart:
    1) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif & /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
    2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
    3) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif & /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
    4) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

    With the 3 moves counted as unique:
    1) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
    2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
    3) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif & /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif

    Am I right?
     
    Oioron, Apr 10, 2009
    #15
  16. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Combolammas - I don't mind at all. The Sarah, Lau, and Vanessa canceling attacks to unique stances will be addressed. It won't be addressed under "default situation" it will (or what I hope to do) is addressed it under its own section.

    Partially. So using Akira in the default state, he immediately has 60 options. In the default situation, Akira has 4 command input options resulting in high attacks:
    1) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif & /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
    2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
    3) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
    4) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

    Out of those 4 attacks, 3 have additional (optional) command inputs:
    1) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif & /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
    2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
    3) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

    After inputing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif your only option is to return back to the default state. After inputting /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, you immediately have 3 options:
    1) do nothing - return back to the default state (where you have 60 options to immediately choose from), or
    2) press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, or
    3) press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

    The other attacks that you listed all started with an attack that hits mid: /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ; /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif ; /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif ; /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. In the default situation chart, those 4 attacks would all fall into the mid strike column and also counts as moves with unique options. The unique options is the command inputs resulting in a second strike that hits high:
    1) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif --> 2)/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ;
    1) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif --> 2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ;
    1) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif --> 2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ;
    1) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif --> 2) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

    Similar to my reply to Combolammas: the follow-up options (inputs) after the mid attacks will be addressed within its own category.
     
    akai, Apr 10, 2009
    #16
  17. Oioron

    Oioron Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    Ok I get it now. Thanks.
     
    Oioron, Apr 10, 2009
    #17
  18. tonyfamilia

    tonyfamilia Well-Known Member

    Very interesting stuff, Akai. Thanks for doing this /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbs_up.gif
     
    tonyfamilia, Apr 11, 2009
    #18
  19. erdraug

    erdraug Well-Known Member Content Mgr Vanessa

    XBL:
    erdraug
    Impressive massive update akai /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif I love how you sorted each character's moves by frames!! I've been toying with the idea myself but i never mustered the motivation to go beyond the two characters i use. Once again thank you, this finally allows me to study my opponents' options after i connect a move /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbs_up.gif
     
    erdraug, Apr 12, 2009
    #19
  20. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Well, there is now 17 new threads, one for each character. Currently, these threads list the immediate strike options available from the default state of the character: high, mid, and low strikes. As erdraug mentioned, the options are then categorized by speed, then damage.

    The goal of this thread was to objectively examine the game system and to act as a venue for me to discuss the organization of the information (like a blog, I guess).

    Ultimately, the whole project was to provide an organized and intuitive way to view the game system that is beneficial to both new and old VFDC users. It could also end up being a complete failure. I hope it is the former instead of the latter! -_-

    This sets things up for the next update (next weekend), which should make a lot more sense of the project.
     
    akai, Apr 12, 2009
    #20
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